Past Oil Discussion

35 Terraplane

A while back, may have been last year there was a discussion about oil, ZDDP etc.  There was a post that contained a link to a report on analysis of brands of oil, and properties about them.  I searched using "oil" but come up blank.  If anyone can find this and post the link it would be greatly appreciated.

Tom

BillUSN1

Try http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

 

35 Terraplane

Bill, thanks for the link.  I searched  through the site but didn't find the report I was thinking of.  Still seaching

BillUSN1

Yep, sorry for that.

It used to have everything. I hadn't been there in a while.

Looks like the site is a commercial sell out now that it became popular.

Jon B

Tom, I think you would have had better luck if you typed ZDDP in the search box.

tigermoth

For those forum members who want continue to educate themselves in the area of vintage auto operation, "Skinned Knuckles, the journal for automotive restoration" has an article in the current edition titled, "the zddp additive myth". Regards, Tom

DavidC

Myth or no myth, do note that some engine remanufacturers require use of oil with >1300 ppm zinc in their flat tappet engines or warranty is void. Apparently they are willing to test the oil left in the block to prove it.
Dave

BillUSN1

I don't really want to open a wound here as there seems to be lots of controversy one the subject.

But I have personally lost a cam which I relate to the change in oil formulas to reduce the zinc content. It had right about 10,000 miles on it. The only oils I ran since break in were mobile one and amsoil 20-50 synthetic. Both were supposed to be top shelf oils.

I understand these old flatheads don't have the same spring pressure that the OHV V8s have but I think that just means the wear will be slower.

I have read(not the above article) but others that state adding ZDDP from a can/bottle does nothing. Did you watch the gas monkey episode where they toasted a new motor using ZDDP and standard 10w-30 oil during break-in? But I have also read that the specifics stated in the articles are not what needs to be tested. So who knows on those?

Why do they have break-in oil and break-in lube all with high concentrations of ZDDP. So it must help reduce wear.

But I feel buying an oil that was formulated with the higher zddp package is required for a flat tappet motor.

Everything I have read states that these engines require at least 1000.

I like many others, have resorted to 15/40 diesel oil(that still meets the old specs) for my engines. Others run special oils from they're preferred manufacture like Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs...etc

I have read that most racing oils don't have the same detergent package as the standard oils and after looking at the inside of these flatheads, I think they need all the detergent they can get!!

Like everything else, it's a personal preference.

If you think you don't need it and it's all a scam, don't run it.

I think it was just another attempt to get our old gas guzzler cars off the road by destroying the engines.

Using the EPA to reduce the heavy metal content for modern cars with cats just helped to achieve their goal.

Frankvintagefullflowcom

Could someone really define the meaning of "break-in oil" for me? We want the moving parts to "mate" but we don't want them to wear. Hmmmmmmmm. Aren't those the same thing? If ZDDP is necessary to prevent excess wear at the tappet/cam interface, won't it also prevent "break-in" of other components? Since I have the luxury of full flow oil filtration right from start-up, I think I have it covered buy using a basic non-detergent oil for the break-in period, then switching to a good multi-grade beyond that. So far, so good. I'll hate it if I'm wrong, but I believe that the ZDDP isn't as critical as some may say, especially for engines with such low valve spring pressures. I have used the Diesel rated multi-grades as well, just for the ZDDP consideration but I question the necessity. Cheap insurance, I guess.
F

Kdancy

I believe some of the cam wear issue is not so much due to the oil, but the quality of the particular camshaft.

BillUSN1

Here's a few of the descriptions straight form the manufacturers.

I guess my big question would be...
If the oils cost about the same, why would you not run an oil with a higher ZDDP content then a modern engine oil that doesn't have it.
Is it worth taking the risk if your wrong?


http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/break-in-oil-(sae-30)/

http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/royal-purple-break-in-oil/

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=341&catid=21&loc=show

http://www.penngrade1.com/products/High-Performance/Break-In-Oil.aspx

Quickly Seats Rings
The primary goal during engine break-in is to seat the rings against the cylinder wall. Properly seated rings increase compression, resulting in maximum horsepower; they reduce oil consumption and prevent hot combustion gases from entering the crankcase. To achieve this, however, the oil must allow the correct level of “controlled wear” to occur between the cylinder wall/ring interface while maintaining wear protection on other critical engine parts. Insufficient break-in leaves behind peaks on the cylinder wall that prevent the rings from seating. The deeper valleys, meanwhile, allow excess oil to collect and burn during combustion, increasing oil consumption. Too much wear results in cylinder glazing due to peaks “rolling over” into the valleys and preventing oil from collecting and adequately lubricating the cylinder wall.

AMSOIL Break-In Oil’s friction-modifier-free formula allows the sharp peaks on newly honed cylinder walls (fig. 1) to partially flatten. The result produces more surface area for rings to seat against, allowing formation of a dynamic seal that increases compression, horsepower and torque (fig. 2).

http://www.amsoil.com/graphs/g2881/cylinders_500.jpg

Protects Critical Parts from Wear
New flat-tappet camshafts and lifters are not seasoned or broken in and must be heat-cycled to achieve proper hardness. During the break-in period, these components are susceptible to accelerated wear because they are splash-lubricated, unlike other areas of the engine that are pressure lubricated. AMSOIL Break-In Oil contains high levels of zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP) additives designed to provide the anti-wear protection required during this critical period.

Increased Film Strength
High-performance and racing engines often use aftermarket parts designed to increase torque and horsepower. The added stress can rupture the oil film responsible for preventing harmful metal-to-metal contact on rod and main bearings. The base oils in AMSOIL Break-In Oil provide increased film strength to protect bearings from wear.

Geoff

 You are right about controversy.  Bear in mind all those glossy brochures are intended to brainwash  you into buying their product.   Most of these specialty products are basically snake oil.   Use a straight 20 or 30 grade oil for running in and thence a good quality modern 20W-50 detergent oil.  The most critical engines for lifter and cam wear are the  splash-fed engines from  1934 onwards, as these have a wiping rather a rolling as in th earlier and then the Sep-down engines.  So if you want  you can us an extra zinc oil, but in my experience good multigrade oil is more than adequate. Meanwhile I'm going to to spread some more orange skins on the front lawn to keep the tigers off it.

35 Terraplane

Just wanted everyone to know I found the thread I was originally looking for.  It was posted by Lee ODell in July of 2013.  MOTOR OIL "WEAR PROTECTION" RANKING LIST.  I just wanted to refresh what I read.  Also I didn't mean to drag the gas can out to add any fuel to the oil debate but here goes.  I have been corresponding with a tech guy from Valvoline.  Told me for my 35 Terraplane a 30 wt non detergent would be good.  The Valvoline V V 265 has 400 ppm of ZDDP and other modern anti wear additives. 

When I got the car in 2006 my father in law had a couple of cases plus of 30 wt Havoline oil that I'd used until 2012. So when I went looking I couldn't find straight wt oil other then the diesel stuff.   So that's what started me on this quest about oil.

From what I've read other places:
Detergents basically suspends all the bad stuff, from combustion, and carry it to the filter to be striped.  The advantage is the detergents act some what like a surfactant to lessen surface tension between the deposits from combustion and the surface they want to adhere to. Now on a car like mine without a filter using detergent oil all the bad stuff keeps traveling around the engine.  I guess in the old days using non detergent oil: that's why you drop the pan on occasion to clean out the bad stuff that settles in the pan.

I drive the car only in the summer and put maybe 350-400 miles on it each year.  I change the oil each spring and it pretty much looks as clean when it comes out and when it went in.  I'm kinda thinking that regardless of the the tech guy told me that detergent oil might be better in that when you drain it all the bad stuff goes with it.  Oh what I'd give for a clear answer.
Tom

BillUSN1

Geoff, I used to have the same opinion.

And I knew when I posted, that it's no different then the same arguments I hear when discussing modern EFI vs carb and points.

No one is going to change some ones opinion.

And if you think it's all snake oil that's fine, I would recommend looking at it from the other point of view.

What about cam manufacturers or regrinders.

If their cams and lifters fail they have to warranty them. They would also be the ones to see the problems first hand.

So why not just do a little google search for any of your favorite cam manufacturers and check their recommendations.

here's one to get started.

http://www.camcraftcams.com/index.php?page=cam-lifter-wear

Not trying to change your mind, just giving you something to consider.

Jon B

I myself use Brad Penn Grade 1, 10W 30 (#7150) in my 212 splasher.  I buy it from a local wholesaler by the case of 12.

Depending on the laboratory that tested it, this oil was shown to have either 1,424 or 1,565 ppm of zinc.  I decided to use this oil on the recommendation of a fellow H-E-T'er who works on Hudsons and other vintage cars.  Maybe the whole thing about the ZDDP preventing wear on our cams is an old wives tale, but there does seem to be some truth in it, and I am in no position to say it ain't so. 

Walmart sells 5-quart jugs of Pennzoil High Mileage 10W-30 oil (the "regular" stuff) at a cost of $3.60 a quart (including my state tax).  Brad Penn costs me $5.17 a quart (including tax) -- $1.57 more per quart than the bargain stuff at Walmart.  I use 6 quarts in my Terraplane and change oil once a year.   That's a total of $9.42 more to fill my car with a "safe" oil.  Why risk damage for such a little differential?

But wait! Shell Rotella-T 15W-40 is only $3.47 including tax at Walmart, when purchased by the gallon.  The zinc content is 1,098 ppm --  not as good as the Brad Penn but still respectable.  So really, why gamble when you can pay bottom dollar and still get some protection?  (Even if you don't need it, LOL!)

Frankvintagefullflowcom

One could argue (and what fun would there be if we didn't?) that contemporary oils, made with complex additive "packages" with components to address a number of requirement of the modern engine, could possibly be detrimental to our older engines. Amongst those are compounds intended to maintain contaminants in suspension so that they may be subsequently removed by a filter before "making the rounds" again. Since virtually all modern engines are equipped with a full flow filtration system, those contaminants are removed before the oil enters the system again. Not so with a bypass filter or, as is often the case, no filter at all. One could say that it will all eventually get removed, if not by a bypass filter, then by precipitation, or simply settling out. Before the advent of the "modern oils" settling was the primary method of particulate removal and the oils-of-the-day allowed that to a greater extent. I wouldn't go so far as to say that use of modern, detergent oils will accelerate wear in our old engines, but it's something to ponder.
That's my biased opinion.
Hit me........
F

cvs

amazing how  engine oil opens the can of worms. I've run many of modern vehicles into the ground running the cheapest on the shelf. Talking no car payment last 24 years. That being said, spending more on a 308 overhaul than I do on my daily driver I also have to consider what's the best course. 

tigermoth

ZDDP was not even invented until after our engines were long into production and use. Modern oils have ZDDP in addition to other additives. If you research articles from when our cars were new and in use there is no record of premature failure of cam/lifter systems.
Regardless of which oil mix you decide to run, it is universally understood that too high a concentration of ZDDP will damage your engine.
I posted the reference for the forum members who want to continue to educate themselves. those who have decided this is a settled issue won't look for the article, for the rest the magazine is an interesting and informative publication.
I find it interesting that many guys who run ZDDP additives will cite their experience as proof that additives work, but look at guys who have never run it and have no problems as proving nothing. I have a set of flat tappets out of an XPAG that look like they were hit with a chisel and ball peen hammer. The tappets were removed from service prior to oil reformulation. In researching that engine there are period articles about premature wear in the cam/lifter systems. Without that historical perspective, if that engine would have been torn down after oils were reformulated, the blame for that wear would have been placed on the new oils.
The important thing is, if you use an additive don't add too much, and whether you use additives or not, drive your old car. Regards, Tom

tigermoth

For Tom posting above...if you only run in the summer, why not change the oil at the end of the driving season to remove the oil that may have combustion by products, metal etching acids in particular, for the winter lay up months? Regards, Tom

35 Terraplane

Is Skinned Knuckles a print or online publication?
Tom

35 Terraplane

Tom,
I like your idea of changing the oil in the fall. That's my new SOP (standard operating procedure) starting starting fall 2014. Thanks
Tom

Frankvintagefullflowcom

I see in re-reading the post from T-Plane that I missed the part where he makes the same point that I was going for. The old saying that "You shouldn't use detergent oils in these old engines" has some merit even though those saying it usually didn't really know why.
To G.C.: thanks for the tip. Those orange skins really work!
F

Kdancy

I just subscribed to Skinned Knuckles after reading your post and going to their site.

Geoff

 Frank, I think you are right  on the button!   Here in N.Z., when unleaded fuel was introduced there was an outcry from the enthusiast lobby that their cars were doomed to destruction from valve seat recession, so an additive was made available called "Valvemaster" which was  phosphorous based, and supposed to do what lead had  been doing, providing lubricant surfacing on the seats.  A lot of people thought "One shot good, two shots better" and finished up with valves jamming in the guides because of phosphorous build-up on the valve stems.

Remember Bardahl?  Was the holy grail of engine additives, until it was discovered that it's basic function was to deposit varnish over  all the engine components, causing stuck rings,  etc.  

I realise  many people will swear by the modern alternatives and additives, but good basic lubrication is all that is needed for our old engines.   I have done half a million miles in my 1928 Essex  using just off-the-shelf multigrade  oils.  Just going to chuck some more orange skins on the lawn. 

tigermoth

Tom, skinned knuckles is still only a print publication..which I like..here is their website for you to poke around and perhaps, subscribe. Regards, Tom

http://skinnedknuckles.net/pages/index.htm

J Spencer

I get Skinned Knuckles and the article goes along with Information I got a few years back from Valvoline that modern oil should be OK on an engine already in service and 'broken in'.  Wear additive should be used on a rebuild till broken in.  I installed many Chevy V8 cams in the past and always had a break in lube with it for initial break in. There problem had to do with bad cams, not oil. I have been using Castrol GTX 10-40 in my 51  Pacemaker for 25 years and about 35 thousand mile with no problem.  The oppinions and controversy will go on and on and on, etc.   

Years ago when unleaded gas came out everyone was sure the valves would go bad in a short period of time. Some articles I read stated that may hold some truth but it would take ove 50k miles or more before any damage. How long will it take to put that kind of mileage on our cars??  Understand that older cars do not run at the tempuratures (195+) as the newer cars do.  I rarely ever use  any additive of any sort, engine or fuel.