Paint type

Geoff
Geoff Senior Contributor
edited November -1 in HUDSON
Does anyone know how to ascertain what type of paint has been used on a car? I have a 1928 Hudson in my workshop at the moment which needs a touch-up, but I'm unsure if it is nitrocellulose or acrylic lacquer. I have tried lacquer thinners on a small brush, and it dissolves the finish. However, it does the same on both my Essex (nitrocellulose) and Jet (acrylic). I dare not touch up with one type over another or I'm headed for disaster, and I know if I use acrylic I have to go back to bare metal.

Comments

  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
    Does anyone know how to ascertain what type of paint has been used on a car? I have a 1928 Hudson in my workshop at the moment which needs a touch-up, but I'm unsure if it is nitrocellulose or acrylic lacquer. I have tried lacquer thinners on a small brush, and it dissolves the finish. However, it does the same on both my Essex (nitrocellulose) and Jet (acrylic). I dare not touch up with one type over another or I'm headed for disaster, and I know if I use acrylic I have to go back to bare metal.

    Based on my experience - I cut my teeth on acrylic lacquer, that's what I learned on "back in the day" and this entry I found from a Google search I'd say it nitrocellulose based...

    http://books.google.com/books?id=kXcNH5XwNHIC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=automotive+nitrocellulose+or+acrylic+lacquer%3F&source=bl&ots=h2Z-bmnpH3&sig=7O-V0NBdutU225r2vbUZm4AUX4k&hl=en&ei=_LJ3SqjJGoPYsgPC7IXgBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false
    NVSL.jpg
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    Thanks for the input, but this car has been repainted during restoration over the last twenty five years, and the guy who did is is now deceased, so I can't ask him! What I need to know is if there is any way of determining which type of lacquer has been used? Both types of lacquer were available in this time frame.
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
    Thanks for the input, but this car has been repainted during restoration over the last twenty five years, and the guy who did is is now deceased, so I can't ask him! What I need to know is if there is any way of determining which type of lacquer has been used? Both types of lacquer were available in this time frame.

    I used to sell autobody paint supplies in the early 80.s (mostly PPG, RM, and Dupont)...nitrocellulous was still available but very tough to get in any color than black.

    They both dissolve with lacquer thinner so, the only way I would think you'd find out for sure would be to get a chemical test done on a piece or scraping - if that's even possible??

    If you're not looking to restore the paint to original specs the acrylic lacquer would work very well, and is most likely what was used if the car was painted in the last 20-25 years.
  • Browniepetersen
    Browniepetersen Senior Contributor
    You might want to do some testing with the Dupont polyurathane paints. Unlike enamal paints it will not cause the problems (laquer on enamal) of mixing the paint and it is by far the most trouble free. It is also friendly for matching. It is great for touch-up when you do not want to repaint the entire car.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Geoff,



    I talked to my DuPont store manager who has been around quite a while and is familiar with lacquer, and he didn't know of a test to differentiate between the two.

    I also called a well known restoration shop who sells lacquer called Hibernia, and talked to their paint guy who also said he was not aware of a good way to tell the difference.



    Good Luck

    Scott
  • Clutchguy
    Clutchguy Senior Contributor
    Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
    Does anyone know how to ascertain what type of paint has been used on a car? I have a 1928 Hudson in my workshop at the moment which needs a touch-up, but I'm unsure if it is nitrocellulose or acrylic lacquer. I have tried lacquer thinners on a small brush, and it dissolves the finish. However, it does the same on both my Essex (nitrocellulose) and Jet (acrylic). I dare not touch up with one type over another or I'm headed for disaster, and I know if I use acrylic I have to go back to bare metal.



    Geoff, describe how big of an area are you touching up?. Are the area's just chips or flaking around the edges?. It really sounds like it is enamel with very little hardner. If it starts melting that quick it is probably enamel. Just a guess though. Also,is it melting the finish or melting the wax and dirt off?.
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    I've worked a lot with these newer paints and polyester high-build primer surfacers.

    Personally, I don't like them. The resulting mil thickness blurs the body lines on our older cars ( new cars don't really have distinctive body lines any more! )

    The urethane and enamel paints don't layout as flat either. Even with a cut-n-buff you cannot get the finish surface as flat as you can with an acyrilic lacquer paint job that has been cut-n-buffed.

    I know of custom car builders that are "enhancing" the body lines on cars just to compensate for the difference in using the newer paint.

    The high-build primers and urethanes are getting darn expensive to boot :mad:

    I was taught to finish my work out so that you used a minimal amount of primer and hardly more than a sliver of spot putty if needed

    The problem is they don't teach people to get things straight anymore - get it close and flood it with polyester high build primer, then block it out and use a catalyzed spot putty, followed by more high-build primer.

    IMO and experience - It's a flat-out myth that acyrilic lacquer doesn't hold up as well - preparation is the key.

    Sorry for the rant! I'll get off my soapbox now!
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    So, Dan, I'll be getting to this stage in the coming months. I had planned on using a NON-high-build primer, but use the urethanes for base and clear coats. Think this will still muddle up the body lines?



    We get the same sort of problem (according to me) in the woodworking industry when a painter caulks a joint and then runs his finger down the 90* and smoothing it out. On a multiple-piece crown moulding, this makes all the nice sharp corners disappear, which kinda makes the crown disappear into the wall to some degree. The result, drives me crazy, 'cause I hate the look.
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    RL Chilton wrote:
    So, Dan, I'll be getting to this stage in the coming months. I had planned on using a NON-high-build primer, but use the urethanes for base and clear coats. Think this will still muddle up the body lines?

    We get the same sort of problem (according to me) in the woodworking industry when a painter caulks a joint and then runs his finger down the 90* and smoothing it out. On a multiple-piece crown moulding, this makes all the nice sharp corners disappear, which kinda makes the crown disappear into the wall to some degree. The result, drives me crazy, 'cause I hate the look.

    Yeah, the problem is to cut-n-buff a car you need a min. of 2-3 medium wetcoats of clear, added to the basecoat and primer you can see why the build-up in mil thickness gets to be a problem (IMO anyway)

    I know there's lot's of folks who like the glossy-lipstick-plastic look of todays urethane enamels - I'm just not one of them.

    These cars where originally painted in acrylic lacquer and it just has a different look to it when correctly applied, that you cannot replicate with the newer materials.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    Thanks for the input. I agree about the use of modern paints, the film build-up is so thick you blur the clean lines, and if you do happen to get a chip, it is very hard to fill in easily. This '28 Hudson I'm working on has a few areas where the undercoat has bubbled, probably due to wet-sanding and not allowing to dry off before applying the lacquer. I had hoped to just sand off (dry) and re-spray with undercoat and then lightly sand to blend in the surface and re-spray with lacquer. However, if it is nitrocellulose I know the finish will eventually craze if I overspray with acrylic lacquer. I don't like using the two-pack paints, as I have no breathing apparatus. Incidentally, I painted my Jet twenty years ago with acrylic lacquer, and only recently gave it it's first cut and polish. This far exceeded the quality of the nitrocellulose lacquer with which I painted my Essex a few years earlier. I sprayed my '29 Hudson with nitro lacquer 40 years ago, and this lasted okay, but is bad for rain-spotting, and needs regular waxing. Paint has changed over the years, for sure. My Hornet has been sprayed with modern two-pack paint, but I think it looks "un-original" with it's glass-like finish. There are benefits of lacquer, in touching-up, as with a small ponted brush you can put a dob of lacquer in a pock mark and it will blend into the paint nicely, and the thinners in the paint melt into the surrounding surface. The reason I used nitrocellulose on the Essex and '29 Hudson, was because I could put a sealer coat on and re-spray without going right back to the bare steel. You can't do that with acrylic, as the thinners will pickle the coats underneath. Enough ranting.

    Geoff
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    But are the acrylic lacquers still available?
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    RL Chilton wrote:
    But are the acrylic lacquers still available?

    Great question!

    I haven't done a lacquer job in so long - I just "assumed" it was. I just made a couple of calls to some suppliers and a did a search online....

    Yes, it's still available by PPG, and some others like tcpglobal, paintforcars.com, maybe duplicolor.

    The price, unfortunatley has kept pace - so let's just say if you're painting a complete car be prepared $$ no matter what paint you use.

    PPG's duracryl (DAL) was what I used mostly "back in the day" and what I'd stick with as it's a good quality paint.

    You do have to make sure that the etching, primers and spot putty you use are compatible and that you can paint acrylic lacquer over them.

    If I remember right PPG is Kondar primer, and DFL 17 spot putty. I think Evercoat makes a lacquer based primer...I'm not up on their product lines so much. For etching the metal I used Metalprep DX-579 recommended by PPG.

    You can thank the Government and the Greeners for the tough availability of these finishes and why many manufactures have discontinued their acrylic lacquer lines.

    Take a deep breat....ahhh....haven't all the low VOC paints helped in the air quality? NOT!

    The "Greener's" won't be happy until mankind is wiped from the face of the earth.

    My 68 Chevelle was painted in PPG lacquer, I had it for 15 years - no garage and the day I sold it it still looked great no, hazing or cracking and no more chips or scratches than you'd expect.

    68Chev2_med.jpg
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Thanks, Dan. I'm going to look a little more into this. I'm not fond of the new urethanes, either. "Vintage" paint on a classic is a good way to go, I think, short of using Nitrocelluose, which wasn't a very good product to begin with. I'm thinking acrylic lacquer will make the paint stand out, and I won't have to deal with the disappearing body lines that we all love on a Hudson stepdown so much.



    Need to do this soon, it's almost time to primer.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    RL Chilton wrote:
    Thanks, Dan. I'm going to look a little more into this. I'm not fond of the new urethanes, either. "Vintage" paint on a classic is a good way to go, I think, short of using Nitrocelluose, which wasn't a very good product to begin with. I'm thinking acrylic lacquer will make the paint stand out, and I won't have to deal with the disappearing body lines that we all love on a Hudson stepdown so much.

    Need to do this soon, it's almost time to primer.

    Russell:

    I used the Restoration Shop acrylic lacquer from tpcglobal. It was almost half the price of PPG acrylic and is fine for my sedan. However if I was doing a Hudson of your caliber I would use PPG's. I believe PPG has a better product and is harder and resists chipping more than the Restoration Shop lacquer.

    What type of air system and gun will you use. I use a HVLP turbine sprayer, they push a high volume of heated dry air and dry time is very quick. You need to use the slow dry thinner no matter what the temperature.

    Pat
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Geoff,

    Look at your paint supplier for a "non penetrating spot repair lacquer thinner" The solvent is not as "hot" but will still thin the Acrylic lacquer to a sprayable viscosity.

    You should be able to blend the Acrylic lacquer into the refinish paint using a spot repair thinner whether it is Acrylic or Nitro. Allow sufficient flash off time between coats to let the solvents evaporate.

    Good luck to you,

    Weston
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