Head difference?
RL Chilton
Administrator, Member
Specifically, what is the difference in heads between 232's and 262's?
0
Comments
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Russel
the combustion chamber is smaller on the 232 than the 262 just like the 262 is smaller cubic area than the 308 if you can under stand what i'm saying if you lay the head upside down on a bench plug the spark plug hole the 232 holds less water than a 262 and a 262 holds less than a 308 ( a smaller are means more compression)
THERE IS ALSO A DIFFERENCE IN WIDE BLOCK AND NARROW BLOCK
HUDSONLY
PAULARGETYPE0 -
Thanks, Paul for the quick response. I thought as much, and yes, I do understand the difference.
I ask, because I am currently in the process of getting literature and information together for my machinist for my 7X "conversion". I pretty much have that base covered, and now am starting to gather necessary parts for the task. In going over the literature, I apparently had forgotten that 7X's used 232 heads (for the highest compression, obviously). If I remember right, off the top of my head, the 262 should up the compression around 8:1 or 8.25:1. The 232 should be up around 9:1. I have no intention of letting it get out of hand, or doing more than I should for a street-driven car. I just need to make sure I keep my plans and the engine itself purpose-built.
I have on hand a good iron 262 head, which I planned on using, but was second-guessing myself and wondering if I should try and secure a 232.
No such grandiose plans as racing a Hudson, just want some more "pop" than a stock engine, and honestly, probably a little bit of an ego trip is involved to have a 7X. That said, some amount of practicality will have to fill in the blanks. I've been told by reliable sources that using the 262 is an old "racer" trick, but, my opinion is that this was probably before the advent of the 7X.0 -
RL Chilton wrote:Thanks, Paul for the quick response. I thought as much, and yes, I do understand the difference.
I ask, because I am currently in the process of getting literature and information together for my machinist for my 7X "conversion". I pretty much have that base covered, and now am starting to gather necessary parts for the task. In going over the literature, I apparently had forgotten that 7X's used 232 heads (for the highest compression, obviously). If I remember right, off the top of my head, the 262 should up the compression around 8:1 or 8.25:1. The 232 should be up around 9:1. I have no intention of letting it get out of hand, or doing more than I should for a street-driven car. I just need to make sure I keep my plans and the engine itself purpose-built.
I have on hand a good iron 262 head, which I planned on using, but was second-guessing myself and wondering if I should try and secure a 232.
No such grandiose plans as racing a Hudson, just want some more "pop" than a stock engine, and honestly, probably a little bit of an ego trip is involved to have a 7X. That said, some amount of practicality will have to fill in the blanks. I've been told by reliable sources that using the 262 is an old "racer" trick, but, my opinion is that this was probably before the advent of the 7X.0 -
Walt, can you explain your comment a little more? Are you saying that with the 232 head there isn't much clearance to accommodate any valve float? And if so, is that the case with stock (non-7X) valves, or only with the larger valves?
I do recall Smokey Yunick's saying at Nashville that there's a definite diminishing return when it comes to head milling, as you get to a point where reduction in height of the "transfer passage" from valves to cylinder begins to offset the gain from higher compression. I expect one may especially find this situation with a 232 head and a pre-'54 non-relieved transfer passage in the block.0 -
Wide block VS. narrow block is the difference, with that said,the 232 is the same bore as a 262 and can be used as either. Next,In '53, I don't believe there was a 232 not that it matters.. I think the 310110 is the block Part# 11-53 is the casting date. Crank and pistons are different between the 2 engines,bores are both 3-9/16th's0
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walt's garage-53 wrote:Stay away from the 232 head because if you get a feeling that you want to hit the throttle hard and up a little speed you will bend valves. Some guys say we will make clearance for the valves, why, just use a good 262 head, milled 0.030 which will give you a head that measures 1.970. All Hudson heads are 2.000 stock. Walt.
Fellow name of Sloane McCauley ran a 1954 Hudson Jet dragster with a 308 in it from the 60's up into the 80's. His comment on head swapping - "If you have a 308 engine, you should install a 232 or 262 head to increase compression and power".
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN0 -
hudsontech wrote:Fellow name of Sloane McCauley ran a 1954 Hudson Jet dragster with a 308 in it from the 60's up into the 80's. His comment on head swapping - "If you have a 308 engine, you should install a 232 or 262 head to increase compression and power".
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN
Alex,don't forget to talk about inspecting the valves and pistons on a weekly basis while you are replacing the head gasket. It really depends on your use.Drag racing or something that has more power and is dependable?. I have a 7X engine that was brought to me from Beaufort, SC recently for a rebuild. It has been punched .120, relieved to the top compression ring, has 2.100 int. valves,1.75 exh. H-145 aluminum head and a '52 date coded block. I am going check the cam profile but I am not rebuilding this engine. I don't know the history of it but I'm sure it has seen some racing use. The head gasket had been leaking for a long time. Racing VS.dependibility with extra power. Also don't forget the High octane fuel required with high compression. And it seems Premium fuel is anything but that these days.0 -
Thank you for the response CG,
So - the engine is considered a '53 (since it appears it was cast in Nov 53) or an early '54 - as it was most likely put into a '54 Hudson? Also, the stamped serial number appears to indicate it is considered a 54, since the serial number is quite a bit higher than that with which the 1954 model year started with (link to Hudsontech website, below)
According to HudsonTech's website, there both 232's as well as 262's produced in 53 & 54.
As you indicate, apparently the only difference between the 232 & 262 is the crankshaft/stroke.
http://www.freewebs.com/hudsontech/hudsonserialnumbers.htm
It is my thought that since the stamped number found on the engine begins with a '4', the engine might have come out of a Wasp, which would make it at 232 (?)... Don't know - just a WAG at this point...
What color is it? If it hasn't been repainted and it's red, it's a '54. :rolleyes:0 -
Rick-
I guess I can't answer your last question, because of my lack of actual experience. I can tell you to pay close attention to Park's response, I'll re-list it, below:
"I do recall Smokey Yunick's saying at Nashville that there's a definite diminishing return when it comes to head milling, as you get to a point where reduction in height of the "transfer passage" from valves to cylinder begins to offset the gain from higher compression. I expect one may especially find this situation with a 232 head and a pre-'54 non-relieved transfer passage in the block."
Two glaring weak aspects of the L-Head engine, at least when we're talking about generating more power, is 1) Park's point; you can only make the combustion chamber so small (to generate more compression), due to the valves being adjacent to the cylinder, as opposed to an OHV engine, where they are directly above the cylinder. I still would like to know of that point that Park refers to, where the "diminishing return" comes into play. Hudson engineers were no dummies, and probably the point where the 7X engines were milled out, approaches the maximum chamber area. and 2) You throw a valve, say, and the fix isn't as simple as changing heads . . . you've actually lost the entire block.
Additionally, I'm going to add this in regards as to whether to use the 232 or 262 head. If you mill a 2" 262 head down .030 to 1.70, your probably approaching compression ratings of a 232 head, anyway. Unless you're racing, and trying to get every micro-horsepower out of an engine, I think for a street engine, we're probably splitting hairs, and it's more or less irrelevant.
I'm going to do as Walt suggested, and as a few others who have e-mailed me and mill my 262 iron head down (which has not been previously milled) the .030. I'll do the extra milling on the block, larger valves, hotter cam (but a street-tamed version), roller timing chain and add headers. I have no doubt this will give me all the extra "pop" that I'm looking for.0 -
Maybe you should use a Clifford head instead of the 262...it's an impressive looking thing, but I don't know what advantage it gives over the 262.0
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royer wrote:Maybe you should use a Clifford head instead of the 262...it's an impressive looking thing, but I don't know what advantage it gives over the 262.
Matt-
I thought about it. And it still crosses my mind. One of the important things to me is to convey that this engine is "different" than a stock engine. A Clifford or Edmunds head would certainly do that. BUT, that is an aftermarket addition and I want it to look a little more original by using a stock-looking head. My thought was that I would add chrome acorn nuts on the new 1/2" studs, which would give it that extra little "pop" that I'm looking for. That's all for aesthetics, mind you.
Performance-wise, I'd get a little more compression out of the aluminum head, but also get the worries of warping it sometime in the future. She's not going to be a trailer-queen (maybe just at first). Now that I know folks from all over the country, I'm going to drive this car like Walt does. Reliability is going to have to out-weigh the "cool factor" at least to some degree.0 -
. . . and that Clifford head is really beautiful. But I think I can put that $800 bucks to better use right now utilizing it elsewhere.0
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RL Chilton wrote:Rick-
I guess I can't answer your last question, because of my lack of actual experience. I can tell you to pay close attention to Park's response, I'll re-list it, below:
"I do recall Smokey Yunick's saying at Nashville that there's a definite diminishing return when it comes to head milling, as you get to a point where reduction in height of the "transfer passage" from valves to cylinder begins to offset the gain from higher compression. I expect one may especially find this situation with a 232 head and a pre-'54 non-relieved transfer passage in the block."
Two glaring weak aspects of the L-Head engine, at least when we're talking about generating more power, is 1) Park's point; you can only make the combustion chamber so small (to generate more compression), due to the valves being adjacent to the cylinder, as opposed to an OHV engine, where they are directly above the cylinder. I still would like to know of that point that Park refers to, where the "diminishing return" comes into play. Hudson engineers were no dummies, and probably the point where the 7X engines were milled out, approaches the maximum chamber area. and 2) You throw a valve, say, and the fix isn't as simple as changing heads . . . you've actually lost the entire block.
Additionally, I'm going to add this in regards as to whether to use the 232 or 262 head. If you mill a 2" 262 head down .030 to 1.70, your probably approaching compression ratings of a 232 head, anyway. Unless you're racing, and trying to get every micro-horsepower out of an engine, I think for a street engine, we're probably splitting hairs, and it's more or less irrelevant.
I'm going to do as Walt suggested, and as a few others who have e-mailed me and mill my 262 iron head down (which has not been previously milled) the .030. I'll do the extra milling on the block, larger valves, hotter cam (but a street-tamed version), roller timing chain and add headers. I have no doubt this will give me all the extra "pop" that I'm looking for.0 -
Thank you for the response CG,
So - the engine is considered a '53 (since it appears it was cast in Nov 53) or an early '54 - as it was most likely put into a '54 Hudson? Also, the stamped serial number appears to indicate it is considered a 54, since the serial number is quite a bit higher than that with which the 1954 model year started with (link to Hudsontech website, below)
According to HudsonTech's website, there both 232's as well as 262's produced in 53 & 54.
As you indicate, apparently the only difference between the 232 & 262 is the crankshaft/stroke.
http://www.freewebs.com/hudsontech/hudsonserialnumbers.htm
It is my thought that since the stamped number found on the engine begins with a '4', the engine might have come out of a Wasp, which would make it at 232 (?)... Don't know - just a WAG at this point...
The 232 engine was offered in 53 and 54 Wasps. My 53 Wasp sedan has a 232 engine.0 -
According to HudsonTech's website, there both 232's as well as 262's produced in 53 & 54.
As you indicate, apparently the only difference between the 232 & 262 is the crankshaft/stroke.
My bad on the production of the 232, was trying to help.
Piston pin location is different between 232 and 262 also. I say this just to make sure you check them before you get them all together and go to install and find the difference.
Another comment,I like the black-out on the new Clifford head-jmo0 -
It is red, and does not appear to have been repainted.
Guess I could stick a one foot (3/8" dia) wooden dowel into one of the plugs, let it bottom-out, mark the stick, then bring it up to TDC for the piston, make a second mark, measure that and would know what the stroke is... Wouldn't need to be perfect, just good enough to measure the approximate stroke (could easily get within a 1/16 or 1/32), and compare to Hudsontech's charts. This would positively identify whether it is has a 232 or a 262 crank in it - Just got to make sure that the dowel doesn't move from side-to-side on the bottom end of the stroke...
A 'new' #2 pencil (around 7 1/2" unsharpened) would probably be long enough to do the job without falling in, instead of a dowel.
Still interested in hearing some personal experience with putting & running a 232 head on a 262 or 308...0 -
Alex Burr sent me a pretty cool "Tech. Bulletin" that was put together by the late Sloane McCauley. The bulletin was originally published in the Aug. '71 North Texas Chapter Newsletter.
The bulletin contains, among other things, what parts will exchange in 202, 232, 262 and 308's. Following is an excerpt which covers recent posts in this thread:
The 232, 262 and 308 engines all use the same basic block with the only major differences being in the bore and stroke.
The 308 was the only larger bore engine at 3-13/16" and you will pushing your luck to bore a 232 or 262 as much as 1/4"
(.25") to take 308 pistons. A maximum safe overbore of a 308 is considered to be 1/8" (.125"). The 232 and 262 engines will
easily accept a 308 crankshaft, which change will give you 270 cubic inch engine, or 278 cid with a .60 overbore. Of course,
a 232 or 262 crank can be fitted into a 308, if lower cubic inches are desired, but this is not recommended, as the long stroke
308 cranshaft produces high torque, which is the backbone of the Hudson engine. One thing to remember when swapping
cranks is that the pistons must also be changed to compensate for the changes in the stroke by altering the pin position.0 -
Always intrigued me that they did not continue the 232 into 55 and 56 - but did bring the 202 over. Seems like it would have made more sense, power wise, to use the 232 vs the 202 in 55 and 56.
Maybe they had a bunch of 202's left over or something.
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN0 -
hudsontech wrote: »Always intrigued me that they did not continue the 232 into 55 and 56 - but did bring the 202 over. Seems like it would have made more sense, power wise, to use the 232 vs the 202 in 55 and 56.
Alex - If you had ever looked into the engine bay of the '55 & '56 Hudson Wasp you would know why the 202 engine was used in those cars. There was not an overabundance of room even with the 202 engine in the bay.
Jerry
53jetman0
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