I......Don't Know!

[Deleted User]
edited November -1 in HUDSON
I was reading the "Sad but true" thread and I was gonna reply there but, I thought my comments might have gotten overlooked there, so I started this new one to say I.......don't know, but I think the word that's missing when we talk about, "will there be any new cars deemed classic?", is "comparable".The AACA says the last "true"classic was built in 29 and there's only one model, a Hudson. The antique insurance companies say 25 years makes it a classic, (any car). They won't turn you down if you want to drive your 1965 4 door ford fairlane that only has 15,000 miles on it, but, is it

a "classic" or just a well preserved car? I think the word classic pertaining to autos has other words built in like "special", "gorgeous","WOW","hand built",or "how many of these did they make?". A classic car should move you in some way like in the design or how well it was made or what impact that particular car had on the auto industry and just imagine if the 1965 Fairlane was a 2dr. convertible! Getting back to the word "comparable". Can new cars compare with say even 1 decade earlier? Well they seem to be made better. The engines seem to be. Double the life and triple the mileage of the 90s. The seating sure is real comfortable and and there's an overwhelming amount of amenities to be had COMPARED to older cars. But as they have advanced in some areas the designers and engineers have cheapened, (lightened) others, be it for gas mileage or cost of manufacture which is something that as you go back each year was less and less of a necessary consideration.Come one, plastic bumpers? They've even convinced us that it's as strong as spring steel that is, if you consider the ENTIRE FRONT END as being the bumper. Just tap them and you've got a 2 grand bill or more. For a bumper?. On a prius? Convertibles will always seem to be the transformation that makes any year car desirable but, does a 2007 mustang convertible compare to a 1966? Both are nice cars but with one BIG difference. The amount of PLASTIC. Although PLASTIC sounds a lot like CLASSIC, there just is no comparison to popping a machine formed one piece door panel on to a door in two seconds to a panel whose top is made of metal attached to a masonite panel covered in, two pieces of sewn vinyl, three pieces of chrome trim, a metal chrome handle, foam arm rest and screws. My point here is that older cars just had more of a human touch involved. they spent more time (even on an assembly line) building them. My 1966 Olds toronado began it's way to being a car in 1958 and was a finished product 8 yrs. later. Never...gonna...happen...again! Parts were made of solid metal .I had a 1996 jag and, I bought a 2001 with a cracked grill, I wanted to swap them, the 96 was made of all stainless, the 01 was CHROME PLATED PLASTIC. Remember when computers were heavy and expensive? Well now they're lighter and cheaper and they used them to make cars to be the same but, that dang word cheaper keeps coming around,(although not in reference too their cost!). Enough of this jibberish(or is it G). In my OPINION the last production car to be a comparable classic was the 1975-79 Mark 5 especially the Diamond jubalee edition. Big,Classic lines enormous engine and gorgeous. The last car that could be what it wanted to be just because it could was the 1994 Cadillac although, even so, it was highly plastisized and then.......poof! But then again if you grew up with nothing but plastic for your car them, HMMMMM CLASSIC, PLASTIC, I guess for them it'll be the new "solid brass". But dad, Whatta ya mean you didn't have cell phones? The smart ones that know REAL quality will buy one that's at least 40 years old. There's more to write but I can't go on. Hoping to hear some of your views Bud

Comments

  • Jon B
    Jon B Administrator
    Actually, it is the Classic Car Club of America (CCCA) that deems one Hudson -- the '29 Hudson Biddle and Smart long wheelbase sedan (I may have this wrong) -- to be a true "Classic". This is the term coined by the CCCA to pertain to certain pre-1948, high-dollar and low-production automobiles. The only reason the CCCA did this was because HET's Berinie Siegfried campaigned amongst the CCCA bigwigs to recognize the car. I believe that was Bernie's old car at the National meet, parked near the portico of the hotel, and now owned by Hedley Bennett.



    The term "classic" is now thrown around so freely as to be almost meaningless. ("Yup, that's a classic '79 Yugo up on cinderblocks in my back yard...") It is now apparently interchangeable with "antique", meaning anything over 25 years old (or 20, or 10, or 5...). I always thought "classic" meant timeless. Somehow people have conferred "classic" on just about anything (remember "classic Coke"?) that they want to. In these days of instant gratification, why wait to discover which things transcend time...?



    The traditional term for any car over 25 years old has been "antique", though it is certainly appalling to think of a 1984 Toyota Camry as an "antique". (I feel very, very old...) Still, it's nice to have a term that's pretty cut and dried: something gets to be 25 years old, you can get a special license plate for it!



    Certainly, there are cars built in the last 40 years that stand out for their timeless styling. I think of the early 60's Sting Rays, Avanti's, Rivieras, Continentals and T-birds. Their styling still look good in my eyes. Timeless. But I'm sure I'd get an argument on that. CCCA or not, "classic" is pretty much in the eyes of the beholder.
  • hudsontech
    hudsontech Senior Contributor
    Well, we do have the 48 to 54 (may have the upper side wrong) considered "Special Interest" with some organization or other.



    Hudsonly,

    Alex Burr

    Memphis, TN
  • Browniepetersen
    Browniepetersen Senior Contributor
    This is a good time for this discussion because a few of us Hudson folks attended the Utah Concourse de Excelence over the weekend. Unlike most of the shows in Utah each year, there were no hot rods or modified cars at the show. However, that did not keep out the Mustang's or Corvette's. I still have a difficult time when someone goes out and purchases a new Mustang/Corvette with "whoever's" special modification and drives it onto the field as a "Classic." However, with this comment made, the show this year was the best that I have seen in many years. Actually, there were only a few true CCCA "Classics" on the field. And there was the 29 Biddle and Smart Hudson that was restored by Custom and Classics (members of the HET) There was also the "Golden Hudson" that is not recognized by CCCA but very deserving of being voted in. I will not go on and mention all the cars that were there but it was not the RR, Lincoln, Cad or whatever that caught my attention. It was either the 1909 Stanley or the 1930 Willis-Knight roadster. I guess it does not matter what you call them antique, classic etc.: however, when you walk out on the field to look at the cars you know right away what the top cars are that are on display. As I have often said: "Pretty girls are a dime a dozen but a good looking Classic Car only comes along once in a life time." :cool::D
  • Aaron D. IL
    Aaron D. IL Senior Contributor
    No doubt beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I'd say in 95% of cases classic cars are made of metal, made by people (not robots), mostly assembled in the country of their origin (British cars assembled in Britian etc), engineered with some original thought put into it, made with some imagination, style, and a touch of class. That's what makes them "classic". By that criteria I think few cars made in the last 25 years qualify. But I'm sure plenty of Mustang/Camaro/Corvette owners would argue with me there and still want to be on a car show field and I say fine, park you car at the show, just don't be surprised if alot of people are not looking at something they can go to any dealership and see.



    I used to be the proud owner of a '78 Tbird and I took it to shows and whatnot in the late '90's and although it looked real nice it got only a little attention and when it turned 25 years old it could be considered antique or an "old car" but not "classic." Too new, too common (at the time) and I decided I wanted something even older. That was one of the factors that lead me into Hudsoning.
  • Did people complain when steel replaced wood for automobile frames? Or how about when nickel trim replaced brass? Or when chrome replaced nickel? Advances in technology only make our cars better.

    If the great car designers of years past had the technology to put plastic bumpers on their designs, they would have. Imagine how thrilled Frank Spring would have been to have bumpers incorporated into the Stepdown design, instead of grafting on two large hunks of chrome plated steel onto the front and back of his creation.
  • Aaron D. IL
    Aaron D. IL Senior Contributor
    I think you misunderstand, I'm not talking about quality of materials what is superior or what isn't or what technology has improved. I'm talking what criteria constitutes a "classic." All of which is in the past...not today. Even wood-framed cars of the early days had metal in them. What designers would have done had certain things been available is a matter for speculation.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    I love this thread, by the way!



    Let me touch on this metal vs. plastic thing. One glaring truth: in 30 years from today, my Hudson will still be just as road-worthy as it is right now and as it was 6 decades ago (providing there's still gas and oil available).



    BUT, a piece of plastic made today will be GONE in 30 years. The "life" of any plastic, be it ABS, polystyrene, you name it, and expose it to the air and elements will not exist in 30 years. Period. Plastic made 30 years ago is already gone.



    Just stop and think about that little piece of information for a moment and relate it to the automobile.



    This one aspect kinda defines what is going to be "classic" and what isn't, for the most part.
  • Aaron D. IL wrote:
    What designers would have done had certain things been available is a matter for speculation.

    What isn't speculation is that automotive bumpers originally were an add on item, and not integrated with the design of the car that they were bolted onto. It wasn't until the late 20's that bumpers were "standard equipment"
  • RL Chilton wrote:
    BUT, a piece of plastic made today will be GONE in 30 years. The "life" of any plastic, be it ABS, polystyrene, you name it, and expose it to the air and elements will not exist in 30 years. Period. Plastic made 30 years ago is already gone.

    Just stop and think about that little piece of information for a moment and relate it to the automobile.

    This one aspect kinda defines what is going to be "classic" and what isn't, for the most part.

    There are people still enjoying Bricklins. They were fiberglass bonded with acrylic plastic.fs_1975_Bricklin_fsvd_KRM.jpg

    I'll admit that dealing with plastic body parts takes a different skill set than metal, but the majority of the cars made in the last 30 years won't suddenly turn into dust as many fear. The 91 Chrysler convertible I recently sold did not have a single crack in any plastic piece on it. The only part that did rot away was the fabric top, which was easily ordered (I wish it had been easily installed, but that's a different story)
  • 53jetman
    53jetman Senior Contributor
    Matt - Even in 1933, my '33 Terraplane was standard without bumpers (altho you could not buy the car in standard form). The buyer was charged something like $23.00 for the front & rear bumper and a fabric spare tire cover and spare tire lock.



    Jerry

    53jetman
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Matt-



    Not sure why you quoted my post. Nothing you said has anything to do with my comment.



    First, Fiberglass is not plastic. Second, who said anything about dust???



    Been to any junkyards lately, scrounging for a plastic bumper for a Camry, or any other POS made in the last 20-25 years? There's remnants left, but that's it. Plastic dries out, cracks and then breaks off in pieces, or chunks. Plastic exposed in different atmospheric conditions will degenerate in varying degrees, but the inevitable is still the inevitable.



    My father-in-law has a 91 Ford Aerostar, with a plastic bumper, that is literally falling off of the car. Car's never been hit, has not been abused, and has been taken care of as much as possible with a car that sits outside or in a carport. There can certainly be varying degrees of "gone" that I mentioned, but "unuseable" is as good a synonym for "gone" as any other adjective.
  • The outer skin of a bricklin is acrylic plastic, the underside is fiberglass added for strength.

    In a salvage yard you will find plastic parts that have lost their salvagability, just as you will find lots of steel parts that have rusted beyond their usefulness.

    It's funny that this conversation is happening on a Hudson forum. It wasn't that long ago (60's- early 70's) that people were giving Hudsons away for free. Those people didn't have the vision that a Hudson Hornet would be desirable some day.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    royer wrote:
    The outer skin of a bricklin is acrylic plastic, the underside is fiberglass added for strength.



    In a salvage yard you will find plastic parts that have lost their salvagability, just as you will find lots of steel parts that have rusted beyond their usefulness.



    It's funny that this conversation is happening on a Hudson forum. It wasn't that long ago (60's- early 70's) that people were giving Hudsons away for free. Those people didn't have the vision that a Hudson Hornet would be desirable some day.



    Well, not being a chemical engineer, I am not able to detail the virtues of acrylic plastic, so I'll drop it, except to add that: Anything covered with paint and well taken care of, is bound to last longer than something that wasn't, at least until the "protective covering" is deteriorated enough to expose what is underneath, whether it be plastic, metal, or glued-together sawdust.



    However, exposed plastic will deteriorate much, MUCH faster than any piece of metal. It's a no-brainer.



    Relating to automobiles, any car made in the 80's or 90's is not going to be sitting in a field in 2030 or 2040 with enough of anything left to restore.



    And you are right, Matt about the "get-this-Hudson-out-of-my-field-for-free" happenings of the 60's and 70's, oftentimes a running, driving automobile. I've heard too many of these stories, myself. I don't really think that these people were short-sighted as far as having a future collectible, but rather, they were just not exposed to the current multi-billion aftermarket industry that we currently enjoy, or the "collectible craze" that people nowadays are either involved in, or even just exposed to. People have collected cars since the early 20's, but there were only a few individuals doing so. How many of us are out there today?
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    Let's face it - everything eventually deteriorates. Even if your car was built entirely of stainless steel it would develop fatigue cracks at every stress point. However, I must agree about the over-use and now meaninglessness of the term "Classic". We have a magazine here called "N.Z. Classic Car", and it features anything 10 years old or over, including Japanese. True classics have features that are of outstanding merit, design, appearance, or performance. My opinion on Hudson Classics - the first and last Super Sixes ('16 and '29). The Essex Four. The Terraplane 8. And the Step-down. What do other's think?

    Geoff.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Oh, and personally, I hate "molded-in bumpers". To me, real bumpers get bolted on.



    To think that Frank Spring would incorporate such an aberration, sounds like sacrilege. I'll match up my heavy chrome bumper against any plastic junk out there today, and I'm pretty sure I'll come out ahead.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
    Let's face it - everything eventually deteriorates. Even if your car was built entirely of stainless steel it would develop fatigue cracks at every stress point. However, I must agree about the over-use and now meaninglessness of the term "Classic". We have a magazine here called "N.Z. Classic Car", and it features anything 10 years old or over, including Japanese. True classics have features that are of outstanding merit, design, appearance, or performance. My opinion on Hudson Classics - the first and last Super Sixes ('16 and '29). The Essex Four. The Terraplane 8. And the Step-down. What do other's think?

    Geoff.



    "Let's face it - everything eventually deteriorates." Yep, it's gonna happen . . . just a matter of time.



    Your opinion on Hudson Classics: Can't argue, your list is as good as any, but you're asking the wrong crowd . . . we're biased, remember. I say, save all the Hudsons, I love them all. But if I had to single out a list and list the "classics" of the Hudson marque . . . well, that would be tough.
  • Well, I was going to agree with ya'll till I thought about the last Hudson I just drug home two months ago.

    All the tires were down to the ground, but after trying to air them up, I gave up and took them off. While looking at the last one, I decided to try re-airing the last one again. Two months now and it is still up, the tires were last driven in the 1980's, dont know how old they really are.

    The spare was laying under a tree covered in leaves since the 80's, very rusty. But the stainless on all 5 wheels were perfect.

    Dont understand why the rubber tire didnt decay more in 25-30 years.

    The steering wheel deterated like the others do, dash is nice.

    Bob
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