Continuing Saga of my Pacemonster
Aaron D. IL
Senior Contributor
Hi hudnuts.
Well this is the story of what's happening to the Pacemonster in my avatar.
First off I'll give the background on what I did to it.
I swapped out a 232 engine for another one I had. It turns freely and the only changes I made to her is to put a good manifold on it. Plus I cold set the valves as per Walt Mordenti's instructions. (.014 & .017) I added some Hudsonite in the clutch. Then I put the engine in the car and put it all back together. changed the oil, I then rough timed it. put a little oil down the cylinders.
first problem I encountered was the starter sticking. I took that back out and put a little grease on the teeth and put it back together and it stopped sticking, I tightened it down good and the bendix drive pops out as it should.
Checked the compression - cylinder: 1 = 50 2=50 3=70 4=60 5=69 6=55
Now the baffling part. It turns when I start it but it feels as if it's catching a cylinder or something...... like it's hitting some resistance. Plus there is smoke coming out of the oil filter cap and the crank case vent tube. Seems also to be leaking either oil or hudsonite too not sure which. Bear in mind...the engine is cold so I'm not sure what would cause it to smoke. I haven't been dumping a lot of gas into it either. shot a little ether but that's about it. seems like it wants to start but it hits the spot....almost feels like over-compression in one cylinder.... sometimes it smooths out if I crank it a while, but mostly not.
Could this be a timing issue ? Please help oh Hudson wizards. Need ideas before I break something.
Thanks ahead of time.
Well this is the story of what's happening to the Pacemonster in my avatar.
First off I'll give the background on what I did to it.
I swapped out a 232 engine for another one I had. It turns freely and the only changes I made to her is to put a good manifold on it. Plus I cold set the valves as per Walt Mordenti's instructions. (.014 & .017) I added some Hudsonite in the clutch. Then I put the engine in the car and put it all back together. changed the oil, I then rough timed it. put a little oil down the cylinders.
first problem I encountered was the starter sticking. I took that back out and put a little grease on the teeth and put it back together and it stopped sticking, I tightened it down good and the bendix drive pops out as it should.
Checked the compression - cylinder: 1 = 50 2=50 3=70 4=60 5=69 6=55
Now the baffling part. It turns when I start it but it feels as if it's catching a cylinder or something...... like it's hitting some resistance. Plus there is smoke coming out of the oil filter cap and the crank case vent tube. Seems also to be leaking either oil or hudsonite too not sure which. Bear in mind...the engine is cold so I'm not sure what would cause it to smoke. I haven't been dumping a lot of gas into it either. shot a little ether but that's about it. seems like it wants to start but it hits the spot....almost feels like over-compression in one cylinder.... sometimes it smooths out if I crank it a while, but mostly not.
Could this be a timing issue ? Please help oh Hudson wizards. Need ideas before I break something.
Thanks ahead of time.
0
Comments
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Aaron D. IL wrote:Hi hudnuts.
Well this is the story of what's happening to the Pacemonster in my avatar.
First off I'll give the background on what I did to it.
I swapped out a 232 engine for another one I had. It turns freely and the only changes I made to her is to put a good manifold on it. Plus I cold set the valves as per Walt Mordenti's instructions. (.014 & .017) I added some Hudsonite in the clutch. Then I put the engine in the car and put it all back together. changed the oil, I then rough timed it. put a little oil down the cylinders.
first problem I encountered was the starter sticking. I took that back out and put a little grease on the teeth and put it back together and it stopped sticking, I tightened it down good and the bendix drive pops out as it should.
Checked the compression - cylinder: 1 = 50 2=50 3=70 4=60 5=69 6=55
Now the baffling part. It turns when I start it but it feels as if it's catching a cylinder or something...... like it's hitting some resistance. Plus there is smoke coming out of the oil filter cap and the crank case vent tube. Seems also to be leaking either oil or hudsonite too not sure which. Bear in mind...the engine is cold so I'm not sure what would cause it to smoke. I haven't been dumping a lot of gas into it either. shot a little ether but that's about it. seems like it wants to start but it hits the spot....almost feels like over-compression in one cylinder.... sometimes it smooths out if I crank it a while, but mostly not.
Could this be a timing issue ? Please help oh Hudson wizards. Need ideas before I break something.
Thanks ahead of time.
A couple of things come to mind. Could be the timing is advanced to far causing it to fire before it's at TDC. And, how much oil did you put down the cylinders? It doesn't take much to take up needed combustion space causing the pistons to hesitate at the top. Also, your compression numbers shouldn't be more than 10 lbs. between cylinders. I would try a test again after the engine is wormed up and retorque the head. Just a few thoughts.0 -
Try advancing the timing 180 degrees. sounds like you are firing on # 6 instead of #1`. Just a WAG..0
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I would double-check that timing. Check with #1 plug out when it is coming up on compression. Then with the pointer on t.d.c., make sure the rotor is pointed at # 1 terminal. At this stage, with the rotor held anti-clockwise to take up the slack, the points should be just opening. After you have it running you can check it witha timing light. Good luck
Geoff0 -
Aaron D. IL wrote:
You need a valve job to start with. Smoke coming from the breather, oil filler tube) and and the valve cover breather tube, means you need rings and or valve guides. It should not show smoke till after it runs awhile. Do as Geoff said, take out all the plugs and put number one back in and turn motor by fan while you press hard on the generator belt until you feel it hard to turn, this means number one is coming up to fire. Remove distributor cap and rotor should be near #1. If it's near #6 you can not remove and turn distributor as it's bottom is offset. You have to rotate the wires in the cap. 1-5-3-6-2-4. Walt.Hi hudnuts.
Well this is the story of what's happening to the Pacemonster in my avatar.
First off I'll give the background on what I did to it.
I swapped out a 232 engine for another one I had. It turns freely and the only changes I made to her is to put a good manifold on it. Plus I cold set the valves as per Walt Mordenti's instructions. (.014 & .017) I added some Hudsonite in the clutch. Then I put the engine in the car and put it all back together. changed the oil, I then rough timed it. put a little oil down the cylinders.
first problem I encountered was the starter sticking. I took that back out and put a little grease on the teeth and put it back together and it stopped sticking, I tightened it down good and the bendix drive pops out as it should.
Checked the compression - cylinder: 1 = 50 2=50 3=70 4=60 5=69 6=55
Now the baffling part. It turns when I start it but it feels as if it's catching a cylinder or something...... like it's hitting some resistance. Plus there is smoke coming out of the oil filter cap and the crank case vent tube. Seems also to be leaking either oil or hudsonite too not sure which. Bear in mind...the engine is cold so I'm not sure what would cause it to smoke. I haven't been dumping a lot of gas into it either. shot a little ether but that's about it. seems like it wants to start but it hits the spot....almost feels like over-compression in one cylinder.... sometimes it smooths out if I crank it a while, but mostly not.
Could this be a timing issue ? Please help oh Hudson wizards. Need ideas before I break something.
Thanks ahead of time.0 -
OK I got it to TDC and rotated the firing order over and the cylinder resistance I encountered cleared up. I cleaned the plugs too. She wouldn't fire though. I loosened the quadrant screw on the back of the dist and got the points on the lobe so they would open and close and then was able to get spark then I rough timed it again. There is some play in the rotor. Could that be a worn oil pump gear ?
That's where I stopped. I'll try again tomorrow. I think she'll run but she's been sitting a long time.0 -
Aaron,
I'll have my '50 Pacemaker at Sublette this Saturday for the joint Kaiser Frazer Hudson meet. You can look over my 232 engine and perhaps check the play in my distributor (vesus your Pacemaker's distributor) as I had the oil pump gear replaced about 3000 miles ago as well as the timing chain and timing gears at the same time.
Dan0 -
1049superg wrote:Aaron,
I'll have my '50 Pacemaker at Sublette this Saturday for the joint Kaiser Frazer Hudson meet. You can look over my 232 engine and perhaps check the play in my distributor (vesus your Pacemaker's distributor) as I had the oil pump gear replaced about 3000 miles ago as well as the timing chain and timing gears at the same time.
Dan
Sorry Dan won't be in Sublette this Saturday as I promised my old man to take his '46 Chevy to the Route 66 Car show in Berwyn, IL. I'll catch up with ya soon though.0 -
Aaron I think you may have a worn cam gear. Check your pump gear for wear. If you can't keep timing inplace it may be the teeth on the cam are shot. Also, 50# compression is no good. You need a lot more than that. . You'll never get that engine to fire with that low compression. Check the simpler things first but I suspect a bad cam. My 2 cents. FWTW0
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Hudzilla wrote:Aaron I think you may have a worn cam gear. Check your pump gear for wear. If you can't keep timing inplace it may be the teeth on the cam are shot. Also, 50# compression is no good. You need a lot more than that. . You'll never get that engine to fire with that low compression. Check the simpler things first but I suspect a bad cam. My 2 cents. FWTW
Hey Hudzilla. Well I followed your advice. I moved the crankshaft by turning the fan with the distributor cap off and it turned a bit before the rotor turned. The timing chain was replaced by me some time back so that leaves the cam gear. Leaving me to believe there is way too much slop in the gear to time it accurately where it would work, except in a very narrow range.
I read in an old post by Hudson Kid that '48-'50 engines used a steel gear and that '51 and later used a bronze gear. I have a '50 block so that is probably steel and I can only hope that the gear is more worn than the cam. I do not know if that gear can be swapped for a bronze one or not.
As far as compression I seem to remember reading in the book that 50 psi or below you need rings, if not valves...I was kinda hoping I could bring that number up once the oil was in the cylinders as this engine has been sitting about 4 years. Really I'm trying to get more miles out of this old mill but I worry she may be too tired and need a rebuild no matter what.
Winter is creeping up and I have little money for a rebuild and no interest in swapping yet another engine out of this car. (I've done it 3 times) Wish I could just drive it. I might sell it.0 -
You should be able to fire it up even with a worn gear, as there is enough adjustment on the distributor plate to cater for that. All the wear does is retard the timing a little which can be adjusted, and as the drive will be constant, this should not affect timing when running. Also I would not condemn the engine untilyou have had it running and checked the copression at normal running temperature. A cold compression rest on an engine that has not been running for some time tells you very little.
Geoff.0 -
I have in the past gotten this motor to start but would only really run at one very particular point in the timing adjustment. How difficult is it to pull the oil pump/cam gear in a PAcemaker? It seems very close to the frame and the fuel line is routed in the way of it on this particular car. Does it require jacking up the engine? It seems to me the shaft of the oil pump might prevent it from having enough angle past the frame to remove it. Anyone who has had experience with it let me know.0
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Geoff, What I really should have said is that the gear ON the cam might be worn out. If thats the case NO amount of adjusting the timing will light that engine up. There is no timing alignment if the gear on the cam is shot. Period. In 48-9 Hudson used steel gears on the oil pumps ,wearing out the gear on the cam. A retrofit was called for in the use of a bronze replacement gear on the oil pump. If that bronze gear was never installed on this engine then the possibility exists that the cam gear is ground down.0
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Hudzilla wrote:Geoff, What I really should have said is that the gear ON the cam might be worn out. If thats the case NO amount of adjusting the timing will light that engine up. There is no timing alignment if the gear on the cam is shot. Period. In 48-9 Hudson used steel gears on the oil pumps ,wearing out the gear on the cam. A retrofit was called for in the use of a bronze replacement gear on the oil pump. If that bronze gear was never installed on this engine then the possibility exists that the cam gear is ground down.
Okay, in that case I would expect that the distributor would not be turning at all. Strange how Hudson didn't seem to learn from history - the same thing used to happen on the thirties models, the worm on the cam driving the oil pump used to wear right away. And on Essex single plate clutches the splines used to wear right off, resulting in no connection from the engine to the transmission!
Geoff.0 -
Aaron,
Removing the oil pump from the right side of the engine block is not as difficult as it appears. After I had the oil pump gear replaced on my Pacemaker a few years ago, I noticed that the engine timing for the number one cylinder was way off versus the fly wheel. Consequently, I had to remove the oil pump and adjust the distributor in connection with the flywheel (not so much a tricky job, but just a bit on the tedious side and certainly can be done by one person as I did it myself with my limited engine knowledge- AND that was even without the "j-whatever tool" that made the job much easier years ago!). I'd first start by removing the inner right fender to provide easier access to the pump. Remove the three bolts that attach the pump to the right side of the block. Then, simply pull the pump back slightly and turn it to your left and it should come out with little difficulty. Have a new oil pump gasket handy when you're ready to put it back on for good.
Dan0 -
1049superg wrote:Aaron,
Removing the oil pump from the right side of the engine block is not as difficult as it appears. After I had the oil pump gear replaced on my Pacemaker a few years ago, I noticed that the engine timing for the number one cylinder was way off versus the fly wheel. Consequently, I had to remove the oil pump and adjust the distributor in connection with the flywheel (not so much a tricky job, but just a bit on the tedious side and certainly can be done by one person as I did it myself with my limited engine knowledge- AND that was even without the "j-whatever tool" that made the job much easier years ago!). I'd first start by removing the inner right fender to provide easier access to the pump. Remove the three bolts that attach the pump to the right side of the block. Then, simply pull the pump back slightly and turn it to your left and it should come out with little difficulty. Have a new oil pump gasket handy when you're ready to put it back on for good.
Dan
Dan, Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I'll give changing this gear a try (assuming the cam itself isn't worn) and see if I can squeeze more miles out of this mill. Seems as though I'm running out of inexpensive options outside of an engine rebuild. I don't really want to do another engine swap for another used engine into this car either. I've done that 3 times now.
Seriously considering selling or trading it for a solid reliable runner even if I'm switching cosmetic problems for mechanical ones. (if any of you HETers out there on the forum are interested Email me) Thank you everyone who responded to this threat I'll keep you all updated.0 -
Well...IT STARTED. And a giant cloud of smoke filled the neighborhood. What I did was pull the oil pump. This 1950 engine had a bronze gear though so it either left the factory that way or was replaced at some point in the cars' history. Anyways it was badly worn. So I pulled the oil pump out of another 232 block I had and that was worn too but not as bad as the one in my car. So I decided to try that. I didn't have tool J2974 to realign it but the firing order had been rotated anyways so after having the engine at TDC me and my dad kept pulling out the oil pump and putting it back in until the rotor was pointing where we wanted it and close to what's in the book. After several tries, then buttoned it up, rough timed it, and and gave it a shot of ether and POOF she started, although had to shut it down because there wasn't much coolant in it at all due to a leaky thermostat housing (which is next to be fixed) and there was quite a bit of blowby from the crankcase tube and manifold flange so maybe it needs to be re-torqued. Dunno what else it is boiling off. But point is, I got it to run.0
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Good for you Aaron!!!0
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"Three cheers and a tiger!", Aaron. You finally got it goin' depite a smokey start up. Maybe it'll be a keeper after all. The pictures you posted of your Pacemaker sure look nice. Anyway, hope it's all good news from here on.0
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