7-X performance modifications

[Deleted User]
edited November -1 in HUDSON
I can only assume that the topic of Hudson Hornet 7-X performance modifications has been discussed in detail, but my forum and internet searches have turned up nothing. Article after article refer to "7-X performance modifications" and say things like "The Twin-H version of the engine produced 170 horsepower. You could go a step further and order the "7-X" performance modifications which boosted the power to 210 HP" but they never give any detail on what 7-X is. :confused: As a soon to be owner of a beautiful 52 Hudson Hornet with Twin-H I would like to understand what "7-X performance modifications" actually are. :cool: Can anyone help me find the information I am looking for?

Comments

  • mjsandbe wrote:
    I can only assume that the topic of Hudson Hornet 7-X performance modifications has been discussed in detail, but my forum and internet searches have turned up nothing. Article after article refer to "7-X performance modifications" and say things like "The Twin-H version of the engine produced 170 horsepower. You could go a step further and order the "7-X" performance modifications which boosted the power to 210 HP" but they never give any detail on what 7-X is. :confused: As a soon to be owner of a beautiful 52 Hudson Hornet with Twin-H I would like to understand what "7-X performance modifications" actually are. :cool: Can anyone help me find the information I am looking for?



    Michael



    The following is a link to my Hudson Stepdown Web page... the site will provide you with the answers you seek.

    :)



    http://hudsonrestoration1948-54.com/
  • http://hudsonrestoration1948-54.com/STEPDOWNRESTORATIONAIDS.html#ENGINES



    That helps a lot! I am hopeful that I am years away from having to rebuild the engine, so 7X will have to wait. The previous owner took off a high compression head from the 308 when he got it because he said it ran badly on "today's gas". I wonder if somebody had previously modified the engine. Russell C. will be looking the engine over with me and I am sure he will have an opinion on what may be been done to the engine. The owner has agreed to give me the high compression head he had taken off the engine, so at least I will have it for the future if needed. Thank again for the information.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Michael-



    Ken's site is a wealth of information for step-down owners. Do your research, do it well, do it often and stay sharp.



    I won't go into the details of the 7X here, as you can peruse that on your own. There is conflicting opinions of the modifications concerning 7X's. Not in the sense of what goes into the engine, but as to their roadability, reliability and longevity. There is a tremendous amount of untapped horsepower and or torque in a stock 308, depending on your particular application or "wants".



    Keep in mind that a stock 308 is nothing to sneeze about. Put up against any of it's contemporaries in a "stock to stock" application, and, while not the fastest or fleetest on the straightest of roads, the turns and twists and curves will make the brand-X believers of the road truly yield to the step-down. A 7X modified engine can turn those scales in your favor, and a full-blown "modern" application which incorporates modern technology will flat out wipe out any other flathead around. Keep in mind that the beauty of the flathead is in having the flathead itself. Excessive tinkering can turn it into something that it is simply not.



    Now, philosophically aside, keep in mind that a 7X'-ed engine, once modified, will always be that and for all practical purposes, is irreversible. Additionally, a full-blown 7X is not really "street-able". Face it, it's a loose engine that was designed to run flat-out. Racers "back in the day" would replace timing chains every 500 miles. If that sounds like fun, more power to you.



    A "street-tamed" 7X is a more practical approach to a Hornet engine, which is precisely what I'm preparing to do for the convertible. A milder cam, a roller timing chain which is currently being constructed, a full line bore are some of the elements I'm incorporating along with the normal 7X "requirements". Additionally, the work required to accomplish this is, again, irreversible.



    There's certainly nothing wrong with having an engine on the stand, 7X it, add a triple-weber induction system, whatever. Swap it out for the stocker for the weekend, go hit the vintage tracks and have a ball. Come Monday, swap it back out, put the 7X back on the run-in stand and make the modifications you want to get another .3 out of your time, etc. Just something to think about. My point is when you have an original engine in your original Hornet, which you will have, 7Xing your stock 308 will forever "change" the nature of your originality.



    One more thing: there's a lot of simple little "tricks" that can be done without doing a full 7X modification. Simply adding headers and removing your stock exhaust manifold will yield an additional 20-30 hp. It's one of the best $$$ to power gain ratios you can get.
  • Thank you for your insight. You hit on a key theme for my classic ownership. I don't want to do anything too soon and I don't want to do anything irreversible until I really understand what I am doing. My main goals are to have the car safe, reliable, and long lived. Once I have her, I need to get a feel for the car and an understanding of her. Down the road a few extra horsepower would just be icing on the cake, especially if it is non-intrusive and reversible.



    RL Chilton wrote:
    Michael-



    Ken's site is a wealth of information for step-down owners. Do your research, do it well, do it often and stay sharp.



    I won't go into the details of the 7X here, as you can peruse that on your own. There is conflicting opinions of the modifications concerning 7X's. Not in the sense of what goes into the engine, but as to their roadability, reliability and longevity. There is a tremendous amount of untapped horsepower and or torque in a stock 308, depending on your particular application or "wants".



    Keep in mind that a stock 308 is nothing to sneeze about. Put up against any of it's contemporaries in a "stock to stock" application, and, while not the fastest or fleetest on the straightest of roads, the turns and twists and curves will make the brand-X believers of the road truly yield to the step-down. A 7X modified engine can turn those scales in your favor, and a full-blown "modern" application which incorporates modern technology will flat out wipe out any other flathead around. Keep in mind that the beauty of the flathead is in having the flathead itself. Excessive tinkering can turn it into something that it is simply not.



    Now, philosophically aside, keep in mind that a 7X'-ed engine, once modified, will always be that and for all practical purposes, is irreversible. Additionally, a full-blown 7X is not really "street-able". Face it, it's a loose engine that was designed to run flat-out. Racers "back in the day" would replace timing chains every 500 miles. If that sounds like fun, more power to you.



    A "street-tamed" 7X is a more practical approach to a Hornet engine, which is precisely what I'm preparing to do for the convertible. A milder cam, a roller timing chain which is currently being constructed, a full line bore are some of the elements I'm incorporating along with the normal 7X "requirements". Additionally, the work required to accomplish this is, again, irreversible.



    There's certainly nothing wrong with having an engine on the stand, 7X it, add a triple-weber induction system, whatever. Swap it out for the stocker for the weekend, go hit the vintage tracks and have a ball. Come Monday, swap it back out, put the 7X back on the run-in stand and make the modifications you want to get another .3 out of your time, etc. Just something to think about. My point is when you have an original engine in your original Hornet, which you will have, 7Xing your stock 308 will forever "change" the nature of your originality.



    One more thing: there's a lot of simple little "tricks" that can be done without doing a full 7X modification. Simply adding headers and removing your stock exhaust manifold will yield an additional 20-30 hp. It's one of the best $$$ to power gain ratios you can get.
  • Ken, when I go to your restoration web page I can't get any of the links to work, is the problem on my end or yours?



    Harry
  • Roger Harmon
    Roger Harmon Expert Adviser
    Can we talk about those DCOE's for a minute?



    I am very interested in trying them on a Hudson, but I can't find any info to read about their 'street-ability'. Can anybody comment on how they do on a regular driver? I've had trip's on a Falcon (200 cid) and a 56 Ranch Wagon (292) and loved them. How do the Trip Webers do on a Hudson?



    R/ Roger.
  • Browniepetersen
    Browniepetersen Senior Contributor
    Not wanting to go into a lot of detail here but as I understant it the 7X engine put out 210 hp. When I prepared my engine for my 52 Sedan that I called the "Salt Flats Racer" I used some of the items used for the 7X modifications but did not do much more than clean up the cam. With the new pistons, slotted rings, and modern machining techniques I was able to bench test my 308, using the steel head (with some relief) and push up the hp to 225. Using the SBR tires and a slightly modified transmission we were able to run it on the Salt Flats at 122.683 on two passes of a timed run. We were able to top 231 mph on a single 5 mile timed test run. This is on a street legal car that served almost ten years as my tour car. This is not rocket science folks, just good machining...
  • mjsandbe wrote:
    I can only assume that the topic of Hudson Hornet 7-X performance modifications has been discussed in detail, but my forum and internet searches have turned up nothing. Article after article refer to "7-X performance modifications" and say things like "The Twin-H version of the engine produced 170 horsepower. You could go a step further and order the "7-X" performance modifications which boosted the power to 210 HP" but they never give any detail on what 7-X is. :confused: As a soon to be owner of a beautiful 52 Hudson Hornet with Twin-H I would like to understand what "7-X performance modifications" actually are. :cool: Can anyone help me find the information I am looking for?
    Build a good stock engine and balance all parts. You will have more fun with it this way. I build my engine this way in 1995 and installed it in a Hornet 53 which came out of my garage in 1998 with a new speedometer, zero miles, and here it's 11 years later and now reads 127, 815 miles and has never been touched. All members in the NOR-CAL Chapter will tell you this. When you start fooling around you are asking for trouble. My car has made 11 trips ocean to ocean and no 7X will do that. !0,000 miles is a short trip for my Hornet. I can cruise 90 or better and can prove it. Walt.
  • Misandhe

    The 7X is very streetable. It is true it was Hudson's racing motor in early mid '50's and tolerances were made on the loose side for the track but by today's standards it is a mild street motor with good idle and drivablity using stock clearances. It is true you cannot reverse modifications such as putting larger valves in the block. Why would you want to after gaining 30-40 hp and having the acceleration to go when you want to. I really like the acceleration at 60-90mph. I have one in my '54 sedan. Drive it everywhere.



    Randy
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    maasfh wrote:
    Misandhe

    The 7X is very streetable. It is true it was Hudson's racing motor in early mid '50's and tolerances were made on the loose side for the track but by today's standards it is a mild street motor with good idle and drivablity using stock clearances. It is true you cannot reverse modifications such as putting larger valves in the block. Why would you want to after gaining 30-40 hp and having the acceleration to go when you want to. I really like the acceleration at 60-90mph. I have one in my '54 sedan. Drive it everywhere.



    Randy



    Thank you, Randy. I was hoping you would chime in here.
  • maasfh wrote:
    Misandhe

    The 7X is very streetable. It is true it was Hudson's racing motor in early mid '50's and tolerances were made on the loose side for the track but by today's standards it is a mild street motor with good idle and drivablity using stock clearances. It is true you cannot reverse modifications such as putting larger valves in the block. Why would you want to after gaining 30-40 hp and having the acceleration to go when you want to. I really like the acceleration at 60-90mph. I have one in my '54 sedan. Drive it everywhere.



    Randy
    Answer me one thing. Have you driven this engine 11 times across this country for a total of 127,000 miles?? I still go 3,000 miles between oil changes, get 20 to 22 miles per gallon and and 105 MPH is easy driving. Walt.
  • 7XPacemaker
    7XPacemaker Senior Contributor
    I agree with Randy. My 7X has been in two different cars and NEVER been rebuilt since the 70's. Many of these miles have not been easy miles. No, I haven't put 127,000 miles on it. I also have never gotten 20-22 miles per gallon out of a twin H setup. 18 has been about the best, but we have mountains where I live as opposed to flat terrain. Living in the Northern Virginia where the speed limit is 65 mph, I can't say anything about going 105 mph...
  • 7XPacemaker wrote:
    I agree with Randy. My 7X has been in two different cars and NEVER been rebuilt since the 70's. Many of these miles have not been easy miles. No, I haven't put 127,000 miles on it. I also have never gotten 20-22 miles per gallon out of a twin H setup. 18 has been about the best, but we have mountains where I live as opposed to flat terrain. Living in the Northern Virginia where the speed limit is 65 mph, I can't say anything about going 105 mph...
    20 to 22 is not a problem, just install the DANA 2:73 gear ratio and remove the windshield visor. Starting at 75 it sounds like it wants to fly off and in a head wind hang on to the steering wheel. It want to lift the front end. All my cross country trips are without the visor. Can't tell the difference on hills. We had a meet Saturday and 2 Hudson owners did this to their cars and said the same thing, better gas mileage and still eat up the hills. If your engine still has 120 compression in all cylinders your engine is in good shape. My cylinders read 140 compression. I can spin the wheels, but for what, just to show off. Walt.
  • I'd like to do some of these "7X" modifications to the old Packard 356 that I've got. Which one of you gurus have done it to a stock Hudson engine before, and can give me some tips?
  • Turbopackman wrote:
    I'd like to do some of these "7X" modifications to the old Packard 356 that I've got. Which one of you gurus have done it to a stock Hudson engine before, and can give me some tips?



    Doesn't the Packard 8 have the same canted valve arrangement as the Hudson? Seems like I've seen pictures of Packard engines and they are somewhat similiar.
  • 7XPacemaker
    7XPacemaker Senior Contributor
    walt's garage-53 wrote:
    20 to 22 is not a problem, just install the DANA 2:73 gear ratio and remove the windshield visor. Starting at 75 it sounds like it wants to fly off and in a head wind hang on to the steering wheel. It want to lift the front end. All my cross country trips are without the visor. Can't tell the difference on hills. We had a meet Saturday and 2 Hudson owners did this to their cars and said the same thing, better gas mileage and still eat up the hills. If your engine still has 120 compression in all cylinders your engine is in good shape. My cylinders read 140 compression. I can spin the wheels, but for what, just to show off. Walt.



    The 2:73 ratio may work good in your neck of the woods but I wouldn't want to drive either of my cars on interstate 68 in West Virginia with that setup. I wouldn't doubt that your setup is perfect for flatland areas. My father lives in Pa and we put a 3:58 rear in his car. The only time that you could realistically use the overdrive was on the highway. It was comfortable all of the way up to around 60 mph, but it sure lost some grunt as compared to the 4:11 that was in it...
  • `Hudsonator wrote:
    Doesn't the Packard 8 have the same canted valve arrangement as the Hudson? Seems like I've seen pictures of Packard engines and they are somewhat similiar.



    Yup, they're aimed towards the top of the cylinder just like the Hudson. When looking at both engines in front cross section, they look very similar. It also looks like I can put '56 Packard V8 intake valves in it, and they're 2". The worse thing about this engine is the siamesed intake ports. The ports are pretty big though, lol. But I think by applying a few Hudson tricks to it, I'll get some more power out of it. Typical flathead tricks, like polishing the ports, larger valves, different head, etc. The thing I'm interested in is the valve reliefs, oiling tricks, and whatever else you guys do to get the power up.



    Of course, I already posted most of this stuff over in the Street Rod Hudson section, here: Eric's Packard Speedster
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