Saga of the cracked head continues
![[Deleted User]](https://openforum.hetclub.org/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Well pulled the head on the '41 and blew out block with air hose. Initial inspection was OK... cylinders not too bad (minor expected wear), top of pistons good (number 5 had carbon build up) and valves all working...
The exhaust valve on the #5 cyl. and the intake on the #6 cyl. both looked a little rough. After further cleaning and inspecting the #5 cylinder valves looked OK, but the intake valve at #6 looks terrible. The top looks corroded, pitted almost like it was rusted. There's some pitting on the deck between the valves, the seats on the block looked OK but the intake valve on 6 is rough.
So Hudsonites... my question is: What could have caused this obvious damage and wear?
My initial objectives with this car is to keep it as original as possible and try to drive occasionally for a while (6 to 9 months) before doing any major work. I am juggling work and other projects and wanted to enjoy her "as is" but that may not be in the cards. So, at this point I have several options listed here from the least to most aggressive and costly. Your thoughts and suggestions on my next step would be appreciated:
1. Replace head and drive on
2 Replace questionable valve and guide and head
3. Replace all valves and guides and replace head
4. Complete teardown and rebuild (who knows what I might find)
5. Purchase "running" replacement motor, clean up and install
Thanks,
Craig
The exhaust valve on the #5 cyl. and the intake on the #6 cyl. both looked a little rough. After further cleaning and inspecting the #5 cylinder valves looked OK, but the intake valve at #6 looks terrible. The top looks corroded, pitted almost like it was rusted. There's some pitting on the deck between the valves, the seats on the block looked OK but the intake valve on 6 is rough.
So Hudsonites... my question is: What could have caused this obvious damage and wear?
My initial objectives with this car is to keep it as original as possible and try to drive occasionally for a while (6 to 9 months) before doing any major work. I am juggling work and other projects and wanted to enjoy her "as is" but that may not be in the cards. So, at this point I have several options listed here from the least to most aggressive and costly. Your thoughts and suggestions on my next step would be appreciated:
1. Replace head and drive on
2 Replace questionable valve and guide and head
3. Replace all valves and guides and replace head
4. Complete teardown and rebuild (who knows what I might find)
5. Purchase "running" replacement motor, clean up and install
Thanks,
Craig
0
Comments
-
Ken U. here:
Hi, I suggest you do a valve job, do 3 angle grind of the seats. The exhaust valves look nearly new, so those could be ground and lapped in after you grind the seats. You should check the guides for wear. If they are worn you can get new guides from Dale Cooper. You can get the new intake valves from him also. The cylinders don't look bad, but I have no idea how much wear there is in there. The valve job can be done fairly quickly[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Vicki/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG].
How are the rod and mains? Have you checked the clearances? You might want to pull the pan and check it and the troughs for sludge, etc, as well as clean them, and check the rod and main clearances. With the winter coming up, that would be a good time to do an overhaul if necessary. Good Luck!0 -
Ken U. is down here at my house helping me with the Hornet. He and I have been discussing your pictures and posts for a while and his judgement is considered near-biblical concerning Hudsons around here (I trust him implicitly).
Let me add that with the cracked head, that intake valve on #6 looks as though it has suffered corrosion for some time. Normally, exhaust valves will deteriorate faster than intakes, but with the cracked head, and certainly over time, corrosion has taken it's toll.
It also appears that there has been some "quickie" type of repairs in the past, as the exhaust valve, and others appear much "newer" and in much better shape than say, intake valve #6.
Monetarily speaking, to answer your question, I think it prudent to at least do a valve job and check the pan for sludge, build-up, etc. The splasher engines utilize babbit bearings, which are incredibly soft and prone to "melt" if not properly bathed in oil. There are troughs in your pan, and with enough build-up, oil cannot properly coat your main bearings, heat sets in, babbit goes to hell.
Find a replacement head, do a more thorough inspection, count on doing at least a valve job for starters. That's the general consensus down here in South Texas.0 -
RL Chilton wrote:Ken U. is down here at my house helping me with the Hornet. He and I have been discussing your pictures and posts for a while and his judgement is considered near-biblical concerning Hudsons around here (I trust him implicitly).
Let me add that with the cracked head, that intake valve on #6 looks as though it has suffered corrosion for some time. Normally, exhaust valves will deteriorate faster than intakes, but with the cracked head, and certainly over time, corrosion has taken it's toll.
It also appears that there has been some "quickie" type of repairs in the past, as the exhaust valve, and others appear much "newer" and in much better shape than say, intake valve #6.
Monetarily speaking, to answer your question, I think it prudent to at least do a valve job and check the pan for sludge, build-up, etc. The splasher engines utilize babbit bearings, which are incredibly soft and prone to "melt" if not properly bathed in oil. There are troughs in your pan, and with enough build-up, oil cannot properly coat your main bearings, heat sets in, babbit goes to hell.
Find a replacement head, do a more thorough inspection, count on doing at least a valve job for starters. That's the general consensus down here in South Texas.
I thought the same about some of those valves looking newer than others. I'm wondering why they may have been replaced... maybe timing gear problems and jumped time bending a few? Who knows... looks like a valve job is in order at least. Thanks for the feedback... hope to find a head at Pigeon Forge...0 -
In my time I have had to face the " this is all I can do " situation for one reason or another . Some good insight above , BUT , I have NEVER been happy with patch-ups I had to do for any reason . MY advice , if you have the means , be content to look at it in the garage and proceed with a complete rebuild . Any patch-up could well leave you back where your at now with one trip around the block, time and money wasted . BUD0
-
I'd guess the valve corrosion might be due to a leaky head gasket between cylinders five and six, allowing coolant to get in there and work. Seems like all issues are at the top end, so unless there are indicators of problems at the lower end, you could go ahead and do the valve job, replace the head and enjoy the car for an while.0
-
At this point I think I'll be doing a valve job.
What's the best way to check the valve guides on these motors? Is it just a physical check for too much play?
The manual shows a couple of Hudson tools, I'm wondering if new guides are required what current tools can be used to remove, replace and ream? Or will I just have to improvise?
As far as checking rod and main clearances since the motor is in the car I'll have to use plastigage. I don't recall if the the manual listed the min and max on these... but what should they be?
Are there any manuals with more detail pics etc. on the valve train other than the Maintenance / Service Manual? There aren't a lot pics or diagrams... I guess I see what it looks like when I pull the valve covers.
Regarding valve adjustments... after replacing the valves I know you have to adjust for starting... and adjust when hot. Do you guys just snug the fasteners up on the valve covers before starting for ease of removal and destroying gaskets? Or is there some other technique used here?
BTW, thanks for all your advice, tips and encouragement...
Hope to see some of you up at Pigeon Forge... just look for me there... I'll be the young guy with the silver / white hair... whoops that probably won't work as a description with this crowd
Thanks,
Craig0 -
Craig-
I'm sure you'll get some good advice/help at PF. Remember that if you use the plastigage, get the green. The red is too hard and will actually dent the babbit and leave an impression.
Well, at least with the snow on the roof, you'll be easy to find! LOL!
Russell0 -
RL Chilton wrote:Craig-
I'm sure you'll get some good advice/help at PF. Remember that if you use the plastigage, get the green. The red is too hard and will actually dent the babbit and leave an impression.
Well, at least with the snow on the roof, you'll be easy to find! LOL!
Russell
Thanks for the info on plastigage... in the event that the bearings are way out of spec who does babbiting or do you just replace the bearings with "newer" types?
BTW, there's still fire in the furnace...0 -
Babbit bearings need to go back in, but be very selective with who does the work, if going this route. Shops really in the "know" are few and far between and difficult to find these days.0
-
Something you really need to check is the heatriser. The heatriser is a manual type. It need to be set in the open position. The S is for Summer. If the heatriser is closed, it runs the rear 3 sylinder very hot,especially #6. At higher RPM,the exhaust restriction with the riser closed,causes the back pressure to blow down the rings and back thru the intake. This also causes real poor performance. Just driving around town will not be very evident,but when you are cruising at constant faster speeds,it is doing damage. Looking at the pictures,you can see the bad discoloration between 5 and 6. This has been leaking for awhile. Make sure to clean all the studs,nuts and holes in the head..Good luck0
-
If the engine ran okay apart from the cracked head I would do the valves, replace the head, and drive it. Check those points mentioned of course, and the valve timing - it could be that the timing gear is on the way out which may have caused it to overheat. If the centre is loose it retards the timing. Good luck,
Geoff.0 -
Clutch guy wrote:Something you really need to check is the heatriser. The heatriser is a manual type. It need to be set in the open position. The S is for Summer. If the heatriser is closed, it runs the rear 3 sylinder very hot,especially #6. At higher RPM,the exhaust restriction with the riser closed,causes the back pressure to blow down the rings and back thru the intake. This also causes real poor performance. Just driving around town will not be very evident,but when you are cruising at constant faster speeds,it is doing damage. Looking at the pictures,you can see the bad discoloration between 5 and 6. This has been leaking for awhile. Make sure to clean all the studs,nuts and holes in the head..Good luck
Are you referring to the "manual heat control valve" as it's called in the Mech Procedures Manual? I haven't checked that yet... will look at it tomorrow. I guess that it's in the center of the exhaust manifold... haven't found any good pictures of it yet. BTW, the manual actually states to put it in the "W position with the pointer sloping to the rear and should remain in this position for all season operation." I take it that this was a factory compromise so the average driver didn't have to adjust it between S and W (I assume Summer vs Winter).
I pulled the value covers and I see that each set of lifters has a retainer bracket. My question is what holds the springs in place... what type of keepers are here and how do I go about removing them to install a new valve?
Thanks
Craig0 -
Off the subject/// background of your car picture shows a SR71 and Tag Board, where are these now located? Thanks from a retired USAF guy.0
-
HotrodHR wrote:At this point I think I'll be doing a valve job.
What's the best way to check the valve guides on these motors? Is it just a physical check for too much play?
The manual shows a couple of Hudson tools, I'm wondering if new guides are required what current tools can be used to remove, replace and ream? Or will I just have to improvise?
As far as checking rod and main clearances since the motor is in the car I'll have to use plastigage. I don't recall if the the manual listed the min and max on these... but what should they be?
Are there any manuals with more detail pics etc. on the valve train other than the Maintenance / Service Manual? There aren't a lot pics or diagrams... I guess I see what it looks like when I pull the valve covers.
Regarding valve adjustments... after replacing the valves I know you have to adjust for starting... and adjust when hot. Do you guys just snug the fasteners up on the valve covers before starting for ease of removal and destroying gaskets? Or is there some other technique used here?
BTW, thanks for all your advice, tips and encouragement...
Hope to see some of you up at Pigeon Forge... just look for me there... I'll be the young guy with the silver / white hair... whoops that probably won't work as a description with this crowd
Thanks,
Craig
Craig you have a HET member neighbor, Uncle Josh who has done all these things on this type of engine. He is a regular here and I am sure from my previous visit with him, you and he would be great Hudson buddies from the start. Might check in with a great fellow, Larry Cramer... aka Uncle Josh who hangs his hat in Saranac Lake area of NY.
Good Luck0 -
Heart_Of_Texas wrote:Off the subject/// background of your car picture shows a SR71 and Tag Board, where are these now located? Thanks from a retired USAF guy.
Ken:
The SR71 is parked in front of the Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville, AL. In Huntsville we have Redstone Arsenal, the Army's space, missile and aviation "think tank" and NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center co-located on post.
Would have had to drive over to the VFW to park the old girl next to a tank for a pic... the space center is closer... LOL
from a retired US Army guy...0 -
The valve springs are held by a dished washer, in which the retainer, a horse-shoe shape which fits in the slot in the valve. You need a scissor type lifter to raise the springs.0
-
Heart_Of_Texas wrote:Off the subject/// background of your car picture shows a SR71 and Tag Board, where are these now located? Thanks from a retired USAF guy.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but that is one hellacious jet!
http://collections.nasm.si.edu/media/full/SR-71%20Nose-on.jpg
Kevin C.0 -
The jet is very impressive and not as tall as I expected. It is very long. Come visit the Space Museum and see it and all the exhibits, bring money. Bob0
-
Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:The valve springs are held by a dished washer, in which the retainer, a horse-shoe shape which fits in the slot in the valve. You need a scissor type lifter to raise the springs.
Thanks Geoff...
I guess I'll have to find a scissors lifter spring compressor... woo that's a mouthful!0 -
Clutch guy wrote:Something you really need to check is the heatriser. The heatriser is a manual type. It need to be set in the open position. The S is for Summer. If the heatriser is closed, it runs the rear 3 sylinder very hot,especially #6. At higher RPM,the exhaust restriction with the riser closed,causes the back pressure to blow down the rings and back thru the intake. This also causes real poor performance. Just driving around town will not be very evident,but when you are cruising at constant faster speeds,it is doing damage. Looking at the pictures,you can see the bad discoloration between 5 and 6. This has been leaking for awhile. Make sure to clean all the studs,nuts and holes in the head..Good luck
Attempted to move the heat riser and it was frozen, corroded and rusted in place (RIP). Since the arrow was pointed to the "W" I decided to cut the thing out.
After removing it I can see that it blocks a little more than half of the manifold for exhaust gases. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the faster and harder you run it the more back pressure and restrictive it becomes. I'm sure that this contributed to the overheating along with the loss of coolant...
The manual mentioned keeping it in the "W" for all season driving... why in the heck would anyone do that?
Anyhow here's my question of the evening... since the heat riser is now in bits and pieces, can I fabricate a cover plate out of 1/4" (or more) steel and block this opening and run it without the riser? Unless it's needed to help with exhaust scavenging I don't see how this could hurt...
Your thoughts on this will be appreciated.
BTW Clutch Guy, are you aka Dr Doug? If so, did you get my email regarding the 175 (or 212) head?0 -
Yes, just put a steel plate over it. You will enhance the gas flow and minimise the possibility of overheating from this quarter. Do check all those other things as well though. Good luck,
Geoff.0 -
What is the status of the cracked head blues?.0
-
Clutch guy wrote:What is the status of the cracked head blues?.
Well I received the replacement head from you (thanks to your Dad for delivering it) at the Pigeon Forge meet and it has been blasted clean and currently at the machine shop getting milled. Not too concerned with increasing the compression, just making sure it's level. (Just got a call from the machine shop while typing this... head only 0.007" out and they have milled it level - it's ready to pick up!)
Cleaned out the oil pan and lifter gallery. Gunk was not too bad all things considered. Will re-braze the oil pickup tubes on the oil pan, they look like someone has been soldering them. Waiting on the head gasket to come in and hope to have it together ASAP.
BTW, the heat riser restriction plate was in the "W" position. The maintenance procedure manual states that it can be in this position for "all season" driving, of course that was in the 40's and there was a lot less highway driving. In this position the exhaust gas from the back 3 cylinders is restricted by more than half the volume. At highway speeds it's obvious that heat and back pressure is increased well beyond what's acceptable... hence the blown gasket and cracked head.
Had to use a cutoff wheel to get it out. Will be replaced by a plate until I can find a new valve / cover (with the restriction plate removed) to put back so it appears original.
My mechanic checked the valve that is pitted on top (while still in block) and he said the value and block seats were good. May not pop in a new valve after all... we'll decide when we get all the parts together and give it another look. The motor was not smoking, missing or running poorly when the head cracked... as the old saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
We will be installing water temp, oil and amp gauge pod before we crank this baby back up and drive it any distance.
Backed flushed the radiator and nothing really come out... will drop it off at the rad shop and have it tanked, pressure tested and repaired if necessary.
Rick (1946HudsonPU) sent me a decent water jacket cover. I cut the spot welds off the baffle plate so I could remove it and really get inside and remove rust. Noted a couple of small rust pits that we cleaned and welded up. Cleaned, primed inside with weld through primer, and spot welded the baffle plate back. Would have made a new plate but the original was in good shape. This "new" cover should eliminate any water leaks.
Thanks for everyone's help (and especially yours) with this project!!!
Craig
One more question for you Doug: which bolts need teflon tape during reassembly (yes, I'm taking notes... must have dozed off in class) 0 -
Also, might want to back flush the heater core.
I needed to flush mine both ways several times before I consistantly got clean water.
Lee0 -
Lee O'Dell wrote:Also, might want to back flush the heater core.
I needed to flush mine both ways several times before I consistantly got clean water.
Lee
No heater core... this is originally a California car...0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- 37K All Categories
- 106 Hudson 1916 - 1929
- 19 Upcoming Events
- 91 Essex Super 6
- 28.6K HUDSON
- 560 "How To" - Skills, mechanical and other wise
- 993 Street Rods
- 150 American Motors
- 174 The Flathead Forum
- 49 Manuals, etc,.
- 78 Hudson 8
- 44 FORUM - Instructions and Tips on using the forum
- 2.8K CLASSIFIEDS
- 599 Vehicles
- 2.1K Parts & Pieces
- 77 Literature & Memorabilia
- Hudson 1916 - 1929 Yahoo Groups Archived Photos