soldering pot metal

Unknown
Unknown
edited November -1 in HUDSON
Has anyone figured out a way to solder, braze, weld or otherwise repair a pot metal piece?



I suspect that solder may be too soft, but what about using a mapp or oxy/mapp torch and a brazing rod? What type of rod would you use.



I also thought that maybe putting a small groove in the piece and then brazing or soldering a rod into it might work.



Or, drilling and tapping through the center?



The piece I'm working on is a small arm on the steering column below the steering box that adjusts the throttle and spark delay.



Any suggestions welcome.

Comments

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    go to your local welding supply shop. Welco brand has a soldering material that works very well if you have patients. done with a propane torch nicely. you must support the parent metal extremely well, as in insulating type clay, or you will end up with a blob. been there done that and still got the shirt. but i have successfully done it also.
  • oldhudsons
    oldhudsons Senior Contributor
    in restoring a '39 CC8 cp., which have a LARGE pot metal cast grille, several of the "vanes" had been broken out. Attempting to "weld" them in was unsuccessful so new ones were made of brass which CAN be successfully attached to pot metal with silver solder (or did we braze them, if was 10 yrs. ago?).
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    Eastwood tools has a kit/system that I bought to repair my trunk handle on my Commodore. 45-50.00 as I recall



    http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1224&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword=pot+metal



    They also have procedures on how to do the repairs



    http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=777&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=688&iSubCat=777



    I didn't attempt the repair on the handle because when the break occurred it twisted the pot metal such that it would have been near impossible without making a correct jig to retain the curved shape of the decklid.



    I still have the kit but I have used the anti-heat compound. If you are interested I'd sell you the rods on the cheap 10.00 + shipping - but would want to keep the anti-heat compound (aprrox 25.00 Eastwood)



    *
  • hudsonsplasher1
    hudsonsplasher1 Senior Contributor
    Jc;

    You might try calling Carl Weber, he handles older stuff,and may have the linkage you'r looking for. Phone # is 508-695-6592. He may be in Hershey this week.
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    Many years ago, one of our local antique auto club members showed the membership his chrome repair shop. He did all his own small parts, door handles. hood ornaments, emblems letters etc. He used plastic dish pans on a work bench in a utility shed. He would do pot metal by first getting it clean enough to copper plate. grinding, drilling out pits,sanding, fileing..what ever it took to get back to clean uncorroded metal. Then he would copper plate the part. A battery and some simple electrodes and some chemicals. After it was copper plated he would use soft solder and a jewelers torch or soldering iron to add and fill holes and pits. The copper made a very easy job of it. Each time he thought he had it right, he would replate with copper. Once it was to his likeing and a smooth copper plate. He would take it to the chrome shop. They were more than happy to give it a quick nickle and chrome plate.All the labor was done prior to them getting the part and he knew what it was going to look like when it was done. I would think that could work on some broken parts also. The copper surface should be easy to get adhesion of a solder of some type.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    there is no magic there is there. this is pretty much the same as the Caswell Chrome Plating kit is talking about. i'm trying to figure out how to get all the product upto the chrome plating stuff so i can do exactly what your talking about. Caswell sez something about plating with copper enuf so you can buff out the smaller blemishes but for the larger ones and pits, they have some type of paste that you heat. filler and flux i would imagine. silver solder (never did know how to spell it) also comes in a paste form. i have a syringe of it. easy to use, works for most things. i have about 6 small items that need rebuilding (pot metal) so its really hard to justify the 8 or 9 hundred dollars worth of stuff just for that. if i didn';t have the chrome stuff but could nickel plate, icould possible be in the backyard business, huh ? always thinking of someway to make a living. if i ever find the GOOD way, i will tell all. . . .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    26hudson wrote:
    Has anyone figured out a way to solder, braze, weld or otherwise repair a pot metal piece?



    I suspect that solder may be too soft, but what about using a mapp or oxy/mapp torch and a brazing rod? What type of rod would you use.



    I also thought that maybe putting a small groove in the piece and then brazing or soldering a rod into it might work.



    Or, drilling and tapping through the center?



    The piece I'm working on is a small arm on the steering column below the steering box that adjusts the throttle and spark delay.



    Any suggestions welcome.

    Pot Metal is a piece of Crap that Hudson used and I am sure many others used it. There are people like Geoff and Perry Spring that has taken some parts and had them remade into a metal like brass that is much better then Pot Metal. Do you post on Yahoo Hudson 1916-1929 Super Six message board ? Maybe someone out there has you part.. Thanks Ron
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Hey Ron, thanks for the information. As for the Yahoo Hudson message board, I didn't know there was one. I'm not much of a Yahoo user. I'll check it out.
  • Uncle Josh
    Uncle Josh Senior Contributor
    I understand and have talked with people who have used a relatively new product called 'Alumaloy'. It comes in a rather brittle stick, but when heated at relatively low temperatures becomes a very strong aluminum alloy, and is good for repairing and filling pot metal.



    Haven't used it m'self yet, but suspect the Eastwood stuff is a version of it.
  • Jon B
    Jon B Administrator
    I used a type of solder called 'Alumiweld" which is handled by Eastwood (and is available through others) in an experiment years ago. http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&itemID=1224&keyword=19081 I got it to melt into a scrap piece of pot metal but the melting temperature of both was so close, that I found the pot metal piece melting away just as the Alumiweld melted into it. Result: a big blob of former 1937 hood ornament. Maybe you could heat the pot metal object in an oven to just below the melting temperature (as opposed to using the propane torch on it) and thus control it a bit better than I did. Alumiweld also performed a very strong 'weld' on aluminum as well.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    A lot depends on the particular pot metal part you are trying to repair. Carburettors are particularly difficult, as the gasoline is soaked into the pores of the metal and explodes when heated with a torch. Around 45 years ago I purchased two sticks of die-cast solder, and still have half a stick left. All you needed was an extra-large copper soldering bolt to give good heat transfer. Clean the affected part thoroughly, adn immediately apply the bolt, and then the stick , and it would flow on real good. However I have been unable to find any supplier of this solder since then. there are sticks available which you use a propane torch, of very soft axy-acetelyne flame - clean thoroughly, apply the flame to the part until the stick will melt onto it. There is a very small margin of error, so great care is needed or you finish up with a blob of die-cast. You must have the part able to melt the stick, and you can't put the stick in the flame first, or it melts. And the secret is to clean and immediately solder. Die-cast oxidises virtually immediately when new metal is exposed to air. Silver solder cannot be used - it needs red-heat to melt.

    Geoff.
  • mars55
    mars55 Senior Contributor
    Caswell sells Pot Metal Repair Kits. See:



    http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/solderit.htm
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Thanks for the information. That sure seems easier than some of the others I've seen.



    I ordered a kit from Caswell. I'll let you all know how it works.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    oldhudsons wrote:
    in restoring a '39 CC8 cp., which have a LARGE pot metal cast grille, several of the "vanes" had been broken out. Attempting to "weld" them in was unsuccessful so new ones were made of brass which CAN be successfully attached to pot metal with silver solder (or did we braze them, if was 10 yrs. ago?).



    This is an impossibility! silver solder has to be a dull red heat before it will melt. Pot metal melts at under red heat. Attempting to silver solder pot-metal will result in absolute failure of the pot metal - it will disappear into a blob. However, there are alloy brazing sticks available that will adhere to pot metal and brass, and you can use a propane torch for this. However, once again, you must be extremely careful as the pot metal will collapse without warning. You need to heat the part until the brazing stick just melts on the surface of the part when you have removed the flame. You cannot hold the stick in the flame, it will melt before the part gets to the right heat. Also, the part to be brazed must be cleaned properly immediately before brazing is attempted, removing all oxidisation residue. Aluminium and pot metal oxidise within minutes of being cleaned.
  • essexcoupe3131
    essexcoupe3131 Senior Contributor
    Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
    This is an impossibility! silver solder has to be a dull red heat before it will melt. Pot metal melts at under red heat. Attempting to silver solder pot-metal will result in absolute failure of the pot metal - it will disappear into a blob. However, there are alloy brazing sticks available that will adhere to pot metal and brass, and you can use a propane torch for this. However, once again, you must be extremely careful as the pot metal will collapse without warning. You need to heat the part until the brazing stick just melts on the surface of the part when you have removed the flame. You cannot hold the stick in the flame, it will melt before the part gets to the right heat. Also, the part to be brazed must be cleaned properly immediately before brazing is attempted, removing all oxidisation residue. Aluminium and pot metal oxidise within minutes of being cleaned.



    I have been talking to a freind of mine and his father was a manufactering jeweler for a large chain in NZ and he keeps going on about the low temp solder they use for jewelery, and even for some of the muck metal jewelery that is sold in markets melts at an extremley low temps, this could be a good avenue to look at

    someone in the forum must be jeweler?

    what temperature does pot metal melt at?
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    I have repaired quite a few pot metal parts in years gone by with the rods sold for this purpose. There is a lot of variation in old pot metal. Some will weld just fine and some will not. It takes considerable practice. You might consider using your broken part for a pattern and having a new one cast.
  • Jon B
    Jon B Administrator
    I always wondered if the process might work easier, if you could somehow heat the entire pot metal piece in an oven, to just the right temperature that would melt the soldering rod (such as Alumiweld or similar alloys) -- which is just shy of the melting point of the pot metal. Because a propane torch is so concentrated, it's hard to have good control over this. But if you heat evenly, in an oven, carefully noting the temperature required (one could try some 'sacrifice pieces' to determine the precise temperature required), then you might get this down to a routine. The pot metal itself should be hot enough to melt the solder, I believe, for a good bond. I know for sure that the Alumiweld solder will bond and fill the holes in the pot metal -- however, the melting points of the two alloys were simply too close, and the flame too concentrated, for me to control the process. Maybe with an oven one could do this.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    Sorry Jon, but this process will not work - you need the rest of the casting cold to act as a heat sink, otherwise the destruction will be swift and final! You need to get area around the repair as clean as a whistle, and immediately heat this area only until the brazing stick melts when applied to the parent metal. It is important not to have the brazing stick in the flame. I have repaired Marvel carburettor bodies, and have experimented with ones that were beyond repair, and pre-heating the whole assembly is fatal.

    Geoff.
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