Studs or head bolts
Has anyone used bolts instead of studs on the 212 engine heads with 3/8 studs in them ? Can't find a source for the original size head studs , tried all the parts houses . They all have them with way too long a thread length , am concerned about twisting those off . BUD
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37 Terraplane#2 wrote:
Go to any boat supply store and buy their stainless bolts. Torque the head 45 foot pounds using my tech tip in volume one (1) page 46 and follow instructions. Walt.Has anyone used bolts instead of studs on the 212 engine heads with 3/8 studs in them ? Can't find a source for the original size head studs , tried all the parts houses . They all have them with way too long a thread length , am concerned about twisting those off . BUD0 -
Thanks WALT , I've had the head milled .030 , Think that might require a small bit more torque ? BUD0
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37 Terraplane#2 wrote:
After you have them set at 45, very carefully pull to 50 FT PDS, then run engines till warm, then let set overnight and recheck at 50 again the next morning. After you drive it a few miles do the check again. Walt.Thanks WALT , I've had the head milled .030 , Think that might require a small bit more torque ? BUD0 -
OK , that's about what I thought you would say. I always like other opinions / advice just to reasure myself that I'm doing it right . Now and then I find my thinkin needs some tinkerin . THANKS ,, BUD0
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I too had the problem of finding studs. I got Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store, cut some of them off so they wouldn't bottom out, and have run them for 3 or 4 years in my 47 pickup with no problems.0
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Josh, looks like you are useing washers which is another thing I wondered about , or are they bolts with a shoulder on them ? Curiosity --What is the rod in the pic , nothing like that on my 37 . BUD0
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hello, for what it is worth the parts house/machine shop in my little town (35,000 population) had no trouble coming up with the studs. regards, tom0
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For me bolts don't look half as nice as studs and nuts.0
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Yes, they are grade 8 washers as well.
The rod is the throttle link between the bell crank (which has a rod to the accelerator pedal) below the water jacket and the cross shaft to the carb, partly visible at the right side of the pic.
Your throttle rod is mounted to the firewall on the earlier ones.
BTW, Tommy Tiger, could you give us a Name and address of your source?0 -
McMaster-Carr has stainless studs like I think you need.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#
Search for Threaded Studs. Then select Threaded Rods and Studs. Then you can select Unequal Thread Length Studs and you are there.0 -
Uncle Josh wrote:Yes, they are grade 8 washers as well.
The rod is the throttle link between the bell crank (which has a rod to the accelerator pedal) below the water jacket and the cross shaft to the carb, partly visible at the right side of the pic.
Your throttle rod is mounted to the firewall on the earlier ones.
BTW, Tommy Tiger, could you give us a Name and address of your source?
Please do TOM, these rascals are a bear to find, I didn't have any luck with machine shops either and I'm next door to Louisville KY
---BUD0 -
hello, i got the studs, washers and nuts from brunton's automotive in beloit, wi. on broad st. 815-389-1122. jesse or jim work the parts counter. i think you would also have success talking to sammy at northwest auto supply in grand rapids, mi. regards, tom0
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mars55 wrote:McMaster-Carr has stainless studs like I think you need.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#
Search for Threaded Studs. Then select Threaded Rods and Studs. Then you can select Unequal Thread Length Studs and you are there.
Thanks MARS--The stainless didn't come out right on thread length , I'm a bit leery of too many unused threads in the center area on a stud that small, but they do have an exact replacement for what I have . 1/2 inch of threads on one end -3/4 on the other---1 3/4 shoulder in the center--3 inch overall---65,000psi tensile strength--PART # 91563A136 This would be a good company for one of you guys that keep track of where to get things to keep on your site , or the guys we go to first for parts , they have lots of things usefull in working on cars and about anything else . BUD0 -
37 Terraplane#2 wrote:
Stay away from studs. When you go to take the head off after a couple of years service, you will struggle to remove it. Do like Josh did, Bolts and washers and keep the correct torque and if you have to do any work or replace head gasket, it's a snap. Forget the original look, today is today, and who do you think will know the difference. Walt.
Thanks MARS--The stainless didn't come out right on thread length , I'm a bit leery of too many unused threads in the center area on a stud that small, but they do have an exact replacement for what I have . 1/2 inch of threads on one end -3/4 on the other---1 3/4 shoulder in the center--3 inch overall---65,000psi tensile strength--PART # 91563A136 This would be a good company for one of you guys that keep track of where to get things to keep on your site , or the guys we go to first for parts , they have lots of things usefull in working on cars and about anything else . BUD0 -
walt's garage-53 wrote:Stay away from studs. When you go to take the head off after a couple of years service, you will struggle to remove it. Do like Josh did, Bolts and washers and keep the correct torque and if you have to do any work or replace head gasket, it's a snap. Forget the original look, today is today, and who do you think will know the difference. Walt.
ORIGINAL LOOK ?? Lets see now , I got an A/C heat unit I made up in front of the gear shift , 53 Chev tail light lenses , wooden steering wheel I made , Ford tractor radiator , some good radial tires , light grey upholstery I put a diamond pattern in that I got at Goodwill for $10 , turn signals , a 6v AND a 12v alternator {running a dual system ,one is isolated} sealed beam headlights, model A mat material on the running boards. What the heck , your right Walt , couple ole washers won't even be noticeable .0 -
Uncle Josh wrote:Yes, they are grade 8 washers as well.
The rod is the throttle link between the bell crank (which has a rod to the accelerator pedal) below the water jacket and the cross shaft to the carb, partly visible at the right side of the pic.
Your throttle rod is mounted to the firewall on the earlier ones.
BTW, Tommy Tiger, could you give us a Name and address of your source?
You're running grade 8 bolts with grade 8 flat washers. The factory stud and nut setup did not run washers (mine didn't) so what is the preferred method if I wanted to change to bolts?
The nuts from my 41 head seem a little "heavier" than other fasteners with a distinct "raised" or boss area. I like the idea of changing out the studs for bolts... Assuming from the posts that bolts are acceptable, what type, style and material should be used in place of the studs and nuts? Flanged head bolts, bolts with flat washers... fastener grade and finish?
Craig0 -
You are right on the special original head nuts, these were larger in diameter than a standard nut, and spread the pressure a bit better. You used an 11/16" wrench on them whereas a standard UNC nut is 9/16. Only one point on which I will have to disagree with Walt on, is pulling down to 55 pounds - these old blocks are not that structurally sound around the bores, and I think 55 is too high, there is a likelihood of distorting the block at that pressure. The normal recommended torque for a 3/8" stud is 40 lbs, and I have never had head gasket problems at this setting.
Geoff.0 -
Gonna flip the coin on the torque setting as there have been posts where guys have pulled the threads in the block and had to file them flat . The older the block the more likely to happen . On the other hand torque specs are given for new lightly oiled bolts and my own method is to add 5pds NO MORE for any old material . What to use : I would think a bolt with a flange on it would be best as it would be more solid than bolt/washer , admittedly an opinion, may not make any difference . McMaster Carr has either set up --bolts 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 --- going into the open water jacket I think I would opt for 2 3/4 to make use of all available threads . Check the depth on any blind holes . BUD0
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Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
Geoff, I did not say 55. I said torque at 45 then after sitting retorque at 50. Yes, 55 will pull the stud or bolt up in the block as they are near cylinder walls. Walt.You are right on the special original head nuts, these were larger in diameter than a standard nut, and spread the pressure a bit better. You used an 11/16" wrench on them whereas a standard UNC nut is 9/16. Only one point on which I will have to disagree with Walt on, is pulling down to 55 pounds - these old blocks are not that structurally sound around the bores, and I think 55 is too high, there is a likelihood of distorting the block at that pressure. The normal recommended torque for a 3/8" stud is 40 lbs, and I have never had head gasket problems at this setting.
Geoff.0 -
Sure is a beautiful car, Bud!0
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Ok... I'm looking at bolts instead of studs... I've looked at several articles regarding finish... what would be best...
Chrome
stainless
zinc
"black" zinc
"cadmium"
I'm not too concerned with originality... I removed one of the studs to inspect and have a sample... they are in good shape. With all the concerns of bolt stretch, fatigue etc, does it make sense to reuse the original nuts (if you don't change to bolts) or if you wanted to keep studs should you change the nuts?
Don't want to make it more complicated than it needs to be... but new black, stainless or chrome bolts would look nice.
Craig0 -
Just to confuse the issue some more... here's an excerpt from ARP's site parts catalog... I think I'll just keep the studs for now...
http://www.arp-bolts.com
When you use bolts to secure the head, the fastener is actually being “twisted†while it’s being torqued to the proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two different forces simultaneously. A stud should be installed in a “relaxed†mode—never crank it in tightly using a jammed nut.
If everything is right, the stud should be installed finger tight. Then, when applying torque to the nut, the stud will stretch only on the vertical axis. Remember, an undercut shorter stud will have a rate similar to a longer, standard shank stud. This provides a more even clamping force on the head. Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run.0 -
RL Chilton wrote:
---Thank you RL--that's what I call it, my BLACK BEAUTY , And proud to say every bit of what ever it is I did myself , Would you believe that paint job was done in the open air in my back yard ? BUDSure is a beautiful car, Bud!0 -
I haven't seen any comments about electrogalvanic corrosions if stainless steel hardware is used with cast iron blocks. Any thoughts on this?
Tom0 -
YEP, I wouldn't do it , you must use a sealer that would act as a barrier but why take the chance when a plain ole grade 8 bolt gives all the strength you need and then some ? And lots cheaper !! Strong chance of messing up block threads on removal , then you got big time problems . Have heard of guys going over size but that is extremely expensive by my standards . BUD0
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37 Terraplane#2 wrote:YEP, I wouldn't do it , you must use a sealer that would act as a barrier but why take the chance when a plain ole grade 8 bolt gives all the strength you need and then some ? And lots cheaper !! Strong chance of messing up block threads on removal , then you got big time problems . Have heard of guys going over size but that is extremely expensive by my standards . BUD
Uncle Josh's head looks pretty good with the bolts...
After all that has been said here, would you use bolts instead of studs and nuts?
Craig0 -
I am in the process of replacing all of the intake and exhaust studs on my Super Six. Since I could not find one of the lengths 3/8"-16 x 1 5/8" off the shelf I went to a local machine shop. They were able to order material and cut it down to the correct size. It was quick, cheap.0
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HotrodHR wrote:Uncle Josh's head looks pretty good with the bolts...
After all that has been said here, would you use bolts instead of studs and nuts?
Craig
Yes I would , but not stainless , stainless in any use has caused more problems than any other missmatched metals for some reason . Cast iron and plain steel is enough to deal with and use a sealer that is most likely to stay on the bolt as a barrier rather than drag off in a glob . BUD0
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