rear diff rebuild
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I've noticed a bit of vibration in the driveline in the '53 coupe somewhere at about 65-70 mph and looking around underneath, there seems to be a bit too much "slop" in the differential gears to suit me.
I'm thinking I may just tear it down and rebush, rebearing, reshim the whole sheboodle, but before I do though, I'd like to have all the parts on hand to repalce whatever needs it except the crown and pinion of course.
Can anyone tell me what bearings, seals, shims etc., I'll need, and where I can get them? I don't want to disable the car until I have the parts to do the job in a weekend or so because I'm having too much fun cruising around with it and using it to teach the grandkids to drive. What a hoot for them to "drive" (really just steer - but they think they're driving) a Hudson as their first driving experience !! I bet there's not many kids these days that'll be able to say they learned to drive on a Hudson !! My uncle taught me to drive on an old '51 Dodge 4dr sedan, with a three on the tree, and I'm still fond of those cars to this day.
I suspect there's gonna be a few kids who'll know and love Hudsons for a hundred more years or so around here. My grandson (he's seven), constantly pesters me to go for a drive in the Hudson now, and if I refuse he asks me if he can just sit in it then because he loves the old car "smell" in there !!
Funny thing is -- I understand fully, because as a young lad, I too loved the "smell" of old cars, of oil, and gasoline, and paint and grease, and a hot engine bay, and loved to be around garages whenever I could be, and still do to this day.
Sneaky of Grandpa to "hook" the kids this way - but I think they'll thank me for it one day when I pass the cars on to them.
Anyway - I digress !! Can anyone help me with part numbers ?
Thanks in advance.
Ryan
I'm thinking I may just tear it down and rebush, rebearing, reshim the whole sheboodle, but before I do though, I'd like to have all the parts on hand to repalce whatever needs it except the crown and pinion of course.
Can anyone tell me what bearings, seals, shims etc., I'll need, and where I can get them? I don't want to disable the car until I have the parts to do the job in a weekend or so because I'm having too much fun cruising around with it and using it to teach the grandkids to drive. What a hoot for them to "drive" (really just steer - but they think they're driving) a Hudson as their first driving experience !! I bet there's not many kids these days that'll be able to say they learned to drive on a Hudson !! My uncle taught me to drive on an old '51 Dodge 4dr sedan, with a three on the tree, and I'm still fond of those cars to this day.
I suspect there's gonna be a few kids who'll know and love Hudsons for a hundred more years or so around here. My grandson (he's seven), constantly pesters me to go for a drive in the Hudson now, and if I refuse he asks me if he can just sit in it then because he loves the old car "smell" in there !!
Funny thing is -- I understand fully, because as a young lad, I too loved the "smell" of old cars, of oil, and gasoline, and paint and grease, and a hot engine bay, and loved to be around garages whenever I could be, and still do to this day.
Sneaky of Grandpa to "hook" the kids this way - but I think they'll thank me for it one day when I pass the cars on to them.
Anyway - I digress !! Can anyone help me with part numbers ?
Thanks in advance.
Ryan
0
Comments
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Ryan - I did a Spicer axle a few years ago and kept the #s.
axle brgs. - cone 25877 -cup 25821
axle inner seal - CR 13710
axle outer seal - CR 17310
diff. side brgs. - cone 25577 cup 25523
pinion brgs.
front - cone 02872 cup 02820
rear - cone 31594 cup 31520
pinion seal - Nat 5778
shims
pinion front - 1 1/8" id
pinion rear - 1 3/8" id
Diff. side brg. - 1 3/4" id
I got the brgs. and seals at a bearing house. I can't remember where I got the shims - maybe Mc Master-Carr .
Norm0 -
silverone wrote:
Before you go into the rear housing, check to drive line because that is where the vibration comes from. Worn universals, you have 3, the center mount bushings, 2, and the center mount bearing. A sloppy ring and pinion will make a noise, not a vibration. Other things to check is motor mounts, if bad can through the drive shaft out of line, vibration. Walt.I've noticed a bit of vibration in the driveline in the '53 coupe somewhere at about 65-70 mph and looking around underneath, there seems to be a bit too much "slop" in the differential gears to suit me.
I'm thinking I may just tear it down and rebush, rebearing, reshim the whole sheboodle, but before I do though, I'd like to have all the parts on hand to repalce whatever needs it except the crown and pinion of course.
Can anyone tell me what bearings, seals, shims etc., I'll need, and where I can get them? I don't want to disable the car until I have the parts to do the job in a weekend or so because I'm having too much fun cruising around with it and using it to teach the grandkids to drive. What a hoot for them to "drive" (really just steer - but they think they're driving) a Hudson as their first driving experience !! I bet there's not many kids these days that'll be able to say they learned to drive on a Hudson !! My uncle taught me to drive on an old '51 Dodge 4dr sedan, with a three on the tree, and I'm still fond of those cars to this day.
I suspect there's gonna be a few kids who'll know and love Hudsons for a hundred more years or so around here. My grandson (he's seven), constantly pesters me to go for a drive in the Hudson now, and if I refuse he asks me if he can just sit in it then because he loves the old car "smell" in there !!
Funny thing is -- I understand fully, because as a young lad, I too loved the "smell" of old cars, of oil, and gasoline, and paint and grease, and a hot engine bay, and loved to be around garages whenever I could be, and still do to this day.
Sneaky of Grandpa to "hook" the kids this way - but I think they'll thank me for it one day when I pass the cars on to them.
Anyway - I digress !! Can anyone help me with part numbers ?
Thanks in advance.
Ryan0 -
One exception to what Walt says above about vibration ... check to see that the pinion (U-joint trunion) nut is plenty tight. That can be the source of vibration and apparent slack in the gears. A few years ago I went through the rest of the drive train looking for a vibrastion at cruising speeds, and finally discovered whoever did the last work on the differential didn't get that pinion nut tight. Fixed that and no more vibration.0
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I agree with Walt and Park. leave the diffy alone apart from checking the tightness of the pinion nut. There are no adjustments except for shims. If the diff was bad it would be noisy, not causing vibrations.0
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You Kiwi's speak funny, what is a diffy, a bit like a dizzy.LOL.0
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Huddy ....to a Kiwi a diffy is the thing about 10 feet behind the carby.0
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Park W wrote:One exception to what Walt says above about vibration ... check to see that the pinion (U-joint trunion) nut is plenty tight. That can be the source of vibration and apparent slack in the gears. A few years ago I went through the rest of the drive train looking for a vibrastion at cruising speeds, and finally discovered whoever did the last work on the differential didn't get that pinion nut tight. Fixed that and no more vibration.
Well Guys, on the advice to check out the pinion nut by Walt and Park, I made a beeline for the garage, put 'er up on the hoist, grabbed some wrenches, and went at it with a vengance, figuring I was gonna get away with this one on the cheap, and ---- --- no luck
That pinion's so tight you'd think it was welded on !! ( then I'm thinking maybe its seized on loose -- but naahh, it even LOOKS tight)!!
Sooo -- I'm wondering if the steady bearing is toast, but that looks pretty good as far as I can see -- and all three u joints are new -- so I'm back to looking at that list of parts to rebuild the diff I guess. I thought of a stint on a dino -- but that'd cost more than a rebuild, so that's out, and I'm not even sure that'd find the trouble for me anyway -- probably just tell me yep, you've got a vibration all right !
Took a pic on my iphone while I was out there though, just for the halibut.
( note the driveline hanging ) (lousey picture though, -- must have been too much light in the camera (phone !!) lens at that angle. Did a little video clip of the wife cruising around the park with my grandson grinning out the window with this camera( nope - phone !!) a couple days ago, but too bad I can't post that here.
So waddaya think -- tear down the diff this weekend ??0 -
Whoa -- didn't think that pic would come out that big !! Hope it dosen't crash somebody's dial up connection !! Its just an itty-bitty iphone picture - honest !!0
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Yea I know, just an Aussie having a shot at a kiwi for a change.
Then they will tell you if you go on a picnic, make sure you take your chilly bin. ( We aussies call them Esky's) something to keep the beer cold.LOL.0 -
herm wrote:Ryan - I did a Spicer axle a few years ago and kept the #s.
axle brgs. - cone 25877 -cup 25821
axle inner seal - CR 13710
axle outer seal - CR 17310
diff. side brgs. - cone 25577 cup 25523
pinion brgs.
front - cone 02872 cup 02820
rear - cone 31594 cup 31520
pinion seal - Nat 5778
shims
pinion front - 1 1/8" id
pinion rear - 1 3/8" id
Diff. side brg. - 1 3/4" id
I got the brgs. and seals at a bearing house. I can't remember where I got the shims - maybe Mc Master-Carr .
Norm
Thank you herm, for taking the time to list and type all these numbers !! I'll see what I can come up with at the local bearing supply !! They'll probably be able to order overnight, what they don't have in stock.
Much appreciated.
Ryan.0 -
May I give you a tip, to ascertain whether the noise / vibration is coming from the rear end. Jack the car up securely, so there is absolutley no danger of it coming off it's supports, and you have room to get underneath. Use a length of metal tubing, or even a piece of wooden broomstick, as a stethescope. Have the car running in high gear, and press one end of your sounding stick against your ear and the other against the diff housing up by the front of the pinion, and then towards the back. If there are bad bearings or gears you will hear them. You can also check against the brake backing plates to see if it is a bad wheel bearing. Good luck.
Geoff.0 -
Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:May I give you a tip, to ascertain whether the noise / vibration is coming from the rear end. Jack the car up securely, so there is absolutley no danger of it coming off it's supports, and you have room to get underneath. Use a length of metal tubing, or even a piece of wooden broomstick, as a stethescope. Have the car running in high gear, and press one end of your sounding stick against your ear and the other against the diff housing up by the front of the pinion, and then towards the back. If there are bad bearings or gears you will hear them. You can also check against the brake backing plates to see if it is a bad wheel bearing. Good luck.
Geoff.
Sounds like a good plan to me Geoff !! I'll give that a try tonight when I get back home.
I think I'll chain the car to the hoist though before I get under there with things a spinnin' !! A burn-out on the hoist would be way too much excitement for this old buzzard !!
I appreciate the input, and will let ya know what develops.
Ryan0 -
How about getting the drive shaft balanced...If the Ujoints are good it in the balance of the tire or driveshaft.0
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I'd put some new center bearing snubbers in. Fixed mine, and they ought to be changed anyway..0
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Finally got an hour to get back to figuring out whats up with that vibration, this evening.
Jacked the car up a couple days ago, (on the hoist) and let the tires just "hang" there, so hopefully they'd have no flat spots when I got them spinning.
Chained the car to the hoist so no danger to helper if car decided to fall off the jackstands, launch off the hoist, and park on top of my convertible!
Got dear wife to sit in car, hoisted her up so I could move around underneath, and told her to start motor, keep foot on brake, release hand brake, put in "4", let foot off brake very carefully, and accelerate to about 20mph, while I took a look at stuff underside.
Looked at driveshaft, -- seemed ok. Looked at steady bearing, -- seemed ok. Got screwdriver - placed on diff where bearings were and tried to listen by placing ear to screwdriver, all the while remembering not to get hair tangled up in spinning driveshaft !! ( its too thin up there already ). No unusual grinding noises, clunks, rattles or thumps I could determine. Looked back at driveshaft again, and noticed transmission "shaking" a little bit, but attributed that to possible "engine shake" and chalked that up as normal.
Looked back at spinning tires while standing under tranny, and noticed one of them looking kind of "lumpy" and not running perfectly true.
Go back and look closely --- yep, looks like tire not perfectly round.
Go over to other side and -- same thing!
Now wondering if rim(s) are bent -- try to see if they "wobble" but hard to tell for sure when balancing weights whiz by, and make it look like wobble.
Sooo -- got wife out of car and said thank you for help -- hoisted car up again and took both back wheels off, threw them in back of pickup, and its off to the tire shop tomorrow to put wheels on balancer, and see if everything true or not. If not, gonna have to take some more rims down to tire shop to check if true, before powder coating them like I did these ones.
Now I'm hoping its just bent rims, and not a rear end rebuild !!
Next update tomorrow evening after tire shop.
Ryan0 -
You might be on to something with the out of round tires. I got a pair of new off-brand ones on my pickup one time and it vibrated for a year before I finally got them off the ground and put an indicator on them. They were out 1/4 of an inch. I got them off and put some new good brand name tires on and it was smooth as a snelt, as they say in Vermont.0
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Uncle Josh wrote:You might be on to something with the out of round tires. I got a pair of new off-brand ones on my pickup one time and it vibrated for a year before I finally got them off the ground and put an indicator on them. They were out 1/4 of an inch. I got them off and put some new good brand name tires on and it was smooth as a snelt, as they say in Vermont.
By golly, that'll be the new target Uncle Josh -- get 'er "smooth as a snelt" !! (even though I've no idea what a snelt is -- and I'll bet I'm not alone in that one)
(maybe I don't wanna know) !! 0 -
Glad you found what may be the source of the problem, but it would've been better to run the test with the axle in normal position vs. hanging. U-joints being very far out of normal running position can cause vibration, which could mislead you on what's actually the problem.0
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Have you checked the driveshaft for proper alignment? if it is "out of phase" it will throw it out of balance. Someone ove the years may have had the two sections apart and not reinstalled the correctly. The yokes on the shaft have to align with each other end to end. When I first got my 51 Pacemaker I had similar vibration, corrected the alignment plus had the driveshaft check for balance as a unit. I still have some vibration but it moved it from about 60mph to over 70mph.
Good luck, let us know what you find.
Jim Spencer0 -
Park W wrote:Glad you found what may be the source of the problem, but it would've been better to run the test with the axle in normal position vs. hanging. U-joints being very far out of normal running position can cause vibration, which could mislead you on what's actually the problem.
I guess that "hanging" comment sort of threw things off a bit, Park. Actually the whole car was supported on two jack stands holding the wheels up off the hoist a bit, in such a way that the weight of the entire car was still on the rear diff. My hoist has a sliding bridge, that can be placed anywhere along the entire length of the car, between the ramps, and used to place a jack, (or two) under whatever you wish to raise up, so the stands were placed on each side of the "pumpkin" on the axle tubes, holding the back wheels in the air, so to speak.
Thusly, I don't think the driveline was any different from where it is when actually driving the car.
Good suggestion though !!0 -
J Spencer wrote:Have you checked the driveshaft for proper alignment? if it is "out of phase" it will throw it out of balance. Someone ove the years may have had the two sections apart and not reinstalled the correctly. The yokes on the shaft have to align with each other end to end. When I first got my 51 Pacemaker I had similar vibration, corrected the alignment plus had the driveshaft check for balance as a unit. I still have some vibration but it moved it from about 60mph to over 70mph.
Good luck, let us know what you find.
Jim Spencer
I did check the yoke alignment early on Jim, and they are installed correctly. However, as you'll see by my next post, I think your suggestion of having the whole unit balanced would be a good idea, and this would be a good time to do it.
Thanks for the input.
Ryan0 -
Well, I'm off on another tangent now.
I took the two rear wheels down to the tire shop today and had them spun up on the balancer. While they weren't exactly perfect, they didn't look really all that bad, but the balance was off just a bit on them both, so had them correct that to zero. They only needed a half ounce on one, and 3/4 ounce on the other.
So back home I go and decide to put them back on, and go for another drive, to see if there was any change with that move.
Get them back on, and while under there I notice a slight leak in the diff cover gasket, with the odd drip now and then messing up the garage floor, so I decide to pull the cover and fix the leak, since its up in the air anyway, and I think it won't be a big deal, and besides, I'll get a look at the "innards" of the diff at the same time, and maybe I'll see something loose, or whatever.
So I pops the cover off, and discover the gasket "ain't coming off in one piece no-how", and I end up with a scraper getting half of it off, and emery cloth to get the rest of it. A thread chaser cleans up the holes, and everything's rosey except for one small detail. Now I'm stuck with no gasket, and maybe will have to make one if I can't find a source for that little goodie !
So meantime, here's some more questions -- is this just a Spicer diff -- and if it is, maybe they and the gasket are pretty common items, and (haah, dream on buddy) the gasket could be stocked at NAPA or some such ?
Also, now that I've got the back end open, I'm thinking I should do the pinion bearing and seal, and maybe take a little slop out of that location at the same time, but I'll have to check my service manual for the proceedure (its at the engine shop right now along with my 7X block from another car) that turned out to be toast anyway due to a cracked cylinder wall, and the discovery that all cylinders had been bored out somewhere in the past to .125 thou over !!! --- (but that's a whole 'nother story) !
And, while I'm at it and waiting for a gasket, maybe I could get the driveshaft checked for balance you see, so there's a method to my madness !
Also, I found a tag on one bolt with the number 13 over the number 14 on it. Is this something to do with gear ratio or some such, or maybe a Spicer ID of some sort?
(I hope I'm not boring everyone with this thread)!!
Ryan0 -
Ryan,
The rear dif in your Stepdown should be a Dana 44. A very widely used unit, even today. Any parts store should have the gasket in stock. Here is the NAPA part#:
Differential Housing Gasket - Front Axle
Product Line: FEL-PRO Gaskets
Part Number: FPG RDS6629
Price: Price
Unit
:
:
5.49
Each0 -
Dale Cooper has them, also has other gaskets. Check out his web site:
http://www.hudsonmotorcarco.com/0 -
DaveFury wrote:Ryan,
The rear dif in your Stepdown should be a Dana 44. A very widely used unit, even today. Any parts store should have the gasket in stock. Here is the NAPA part#:
Differential Housing Gasket - Front Axle
Product Line: FEL-PRO Gaskets
Part Number: FPG RDS6629
Price: Price
Unit
:
:
5.49
Each
Thanks Dave -- I was hoping that'd be the case. I'll check with Napa tomorrow morning, and see what was meant to be. With that diagram, I should know right away, even if they're trying to cross over to another number.
Much appreciated, Hudson Guys & Gals just "rock" !!!
Ryan0 -
eddynghdsn16 wrote:Dale Cooper has them, also has other gaskets. Check out his web site:
http://www.hudsonmotorcarco.com/
Yep, Dale Cooper is the first Guy I'd turn to if it turns out I have to order them. He's the best there is out there, and I've got stuff from him several times in the past.
I'd recommend him anytime.
Ryan.0 -
Ryan, your "13/14" is actually 43/14, the number of teeth on the ring gear and pinion respectively ... producing a 3.07 ratio.
There is a special tool needed to spread the axle housing to remove the ring gear/differential case assembly on these critters. For this reason and others, the Dana's are not nearly as "do-it-yourself" friendly as the earlier Hudson axles. You may want to take it to a Chevy, Ford or other shop that has the tools and experience to "set up" these Dana units. Yeah, I know ... it costs $$$.0 -
How are your trans mounts?0
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russmaas wrote:How are your trans mounts?
Trans mounts are new Russ -- I think I got them from KGap when I did the engine last year.0 -
Park W wrote:Ryan, your "13/14" is actually 43/14, the number of teeth on the ring gear and pinion respectively ... producing a 3.07 ratio.
There is a special tool needed to spread the axle housing to remove the ring gear/differential case assembly on these critters. For this reason and others, the Dana's are not nearly as "do-it-yourself" friendly as the earlier Hudson axles. You may want to take it to a Chevy, Ford or other shop that has the tools and experience to "set up" these Dana units. Yeah, I know ... it costs $$$.
Yes, I suppose you're right Park, I was sort of avoiding tackling anything technical in there for this very reason.
There's a pretty good shop here called Coast Power Train, where they could fix things up for me, but to this point I was still sort of hoping I could fluke it, and discover the problem on the cheap.
I think I'll just find a new cover gasket, fill 'er up with new oil, and go for another drive. If no improvement, and I've done the driveshaft balance thing, then its yank it out and off to the shop.
I want it right in case I get the notion to drive it to the Nationals this summer.
Good to know the ratio I got there now though ! I've been wondering what it was.
Thanks for that.
Ryan0
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