262 vs 308 Heads
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I have the opportunity to reverse engineer (digitize) a wideblock head, with the ultimate goal of having some cast iron heads made. I'm taking this approach over aluminum so as not having to re-stud the block with 1/2", etc.
What is Forum's opinion re: preferred model head - 262 or 308?
Open fire!
Jon
What is Forum's opinion re: preferred model head - 262 or 308?
Open fire!
Jon
0
Comments
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What's the objective? Are we running out of heads, or ... ?0
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Read this post and give them a call. Been said, done and put to bed....
http://classiccar.com/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=62&jfile=showthread.php&t=21522&highlight=finned+aluminum+head0 -
My perception is we ARE running out of cast iron heads, at least ones thicker than 1.940 inSoCal. I don't want to go aluminum, and read the historical posts about scam foundries. My shop neighbor casts magnesium for the auto industry, he likes Hudsons and I'm riding his professional coat-tails.
Anybody need a 1.910 head - I have several!
Jon0 -
Hudson308 wrote:The quick answer to your question is that the 262 combustion chambers would give you a nice compression boost. The factory 7X "Severe Usage" engines came right from HMCC with the smaller head.
7X had the 232 head.0 -
There was a discusion at our last chapter meeting about the 262 head on the 308. Dany mentioned that he and some others had problems with carbon build up using the 262 head on the 308 engine. Dany was explaining the modification needed to cure the carbon build up problem. After the modification was made, there was an increase in HP because of more turbulance which resulted in better combustion efficency. I believe he gave Randy Mass credit for the modification.
If you do decided to have the 262 heads made you might want to include the modifications into the new design. Dany Spring or Randy Mass might be willling to share the information with you.
Have a good day. Lee0 -
Lee:
Are you talking about minor or major modifications to the head to make this application work?? Using an original 262 head on a 308 block. Thanks, Bob0 -
bobdriveshudson wrote:Lee:
Are you talking about minor or major modifications to the head to make this application work?? Using an original 262 head on a 308 block. Thanks, Bob
Bob:
It did not sound like it was a major modification, but it would be best to contact Dany or Randy for the specifics and the difficulty level. There was no demonstration to show how it was done. Lee0 -
Lee O'Dell wrote:There was a discusion at our last chapter meeting about the 262 head on the 308. Dany mentioned that he and some others had problems with carbon build up using the 262 head on the 308 engine. Dany was explaining the modification needed to cure the carbon build up problem. After the modification was made, there was an increase in HP because of more turbulance which resulted in better combustion efficency. I believe he gave Randy Mass credit for the modification.
If you do decided to have the 262 heads made you might want to include the modifications into the new design. Dany Spring or Randy Mass might be willling to share the information with you.
Have a good day. Lee
The modification in question was originated through the work of Rudy Bennett in association with others... the following is being posted at the request of Rudy Bennett and for the benefit of those who want to reduce engine knock in Hudson performace engines.
See his email to me and the attached information which explains the modification and the benefits Note due to the length of this information it will be posted in two replies
Ken Cates
Ken, Please Help.
The Hudson forum is looking for info on this modification. The modification can be accomplished on any cylinder head. I accomplished this modification 3-05 on the head installed in the 262engine with 232 head that is installed in my 46 Hudson “ Casperâ€, and it is still working. I have attached a picture of the head modification.
The following is a report on what I accomplished. I have also sent this information and report to Randy M. after completion of testing and he is doing it to all of his heads.
1. Post Modification test results 262 C.I.Hudson flat-head 6-cyl engine.
The head was milled .030 to true it up and also raise compression up a bit. The head I used is a 232 cyl head that raises the C.R. up a little. (Don’t know how much) It has been my experience, if this head was installed on a 262 or 308 engine and milled .010 or above non ignition detonation (engine ping) will occur even with limited engine loading.
2. The 232 head was modified, with each chamber receiving the modification.
3. The test I preformed follows:
FUEL USED-86-87 OCTANE
ELEVATION-3500-4000 FT.
TIMING-T.D.C. and 5 degree before, then 10 degree. (eng would kick-back above this )
OUTSIDE -TEMP----70-75 degree.
STOP and GO STARTS ON MOUNTAIN ROADS.
The engine did not ping under these conditions, even lugging the engine down to 400 R.P.M. It would slowly pull faster.
4. The modification consisted of the following actions:
a. CUT IN HEAD
From the edge of cyl. Bore 0.9415 (started then went just into the slanted part of chamber)
b. Half way across, to slant is 0.060 deep
i. Just at the edge of the slant is 0.092
ii. The width is 0.180.02
Before the modifications were performed, this engine would have a ping-rattle that sounded like the head might break apart.
To date this modification is working just fine, no DEATH-RATTLE PINGING of any kind. The engine definitely runs smoother with the modification.
Later in year we will try it on a 308 C.I. engine (flat-head Hudson) and see if we get the same.
Thanks for your help. HUDSONLY RUDY.
Forum readers should start by reading my report and go to his web page and read all of his testing. A number of my acquaintances have done this modification It WORKS.
Pal Rudy
Modification is based on the information received from Mr. Singh in 2005
From: Somender Singh <garudarad1@rediffmail.com>
To: "HARRY BENNETT" <rbennett37@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2005, 2:32 AM
Dear Mr. Rudy,
HUDSONLY!
Sir, it is great to hear from you – I am so happy you managed to get rid of the rattle in your flat heads Hudsons. There is a lot more to it. You just need to get the groove or call it channel a little deeper & a little longer into the combustion chamber – The width looks perfect – you could just take a thick industrial hacksaw blade and achieve the same – Making sure you do not touch the rim of the head gasket by any chance. The channel needs to extend a little deeper towards the plug touching the roof of the combustion chamber. Do it in steps. This design in any form will induce turbulence as the piston reaches the end of the stroke and further distinctly because a spike of flame front to penetrate the deepest part of the combustion chamber preventing the knock or ringing. You will be surprised this design changes the combustion pattern preventing the formation of shock waves that cause head distortion and blown cylinder head gaskets despite the increase in compression ratios. Some day you could torque the head bolts a lot lesser by 25 to 30% and run the same torturous tests to find out the head gasket stays in place? I advice this only under strict test conditions only – Not on some lonely forest road – If ever something had to go wrong!
The next time you get the head out after doing some heavy testing under heavy loads – kindly pull the head out, clean all the gasket cement / sealant / carbon, etc & apply some blue and place the head on a good surface plate – You will understand the truth behind my design change – To your surprise the head would not have distorted or caved in at all – Indicating a softer but much more effective pattern of combustion.
By now you would have noticed coffee brown appearing on all the plugs – you would have also noticed far lesser carbon deposits in the exhaust system ( depending on your cylinder bore / rings / piston tolerances ) When you rip the head off after all your tests - you will notice the exhaust valves would have turned coffee brown with no traces of soot or black - I cannot give anymore explanations – It’s up to the professors and big Daddies of R & D labs spending millions if not billions to figure out – How this could be happening – And that too out of a induced crack in the most stressed component of an IC engine called combustion chamber.
For your reading kindly go through the following text and see how the world perceives combustion – And the next step would be what you have achieved out of my simple design – I am sure if you get the carburetion and ignition fine tuned - the economy will also go up ! See if you can run the engine little cooler around 45 to 60 degree centigrade by removing the thermostat – Your engine oils will stay clean for a lot longer duration. (Make sure you have everything in place when winter sets in?)
Happy times – Do stay in touch – We are all proud of you Sir & the HUDSON Club – Feel free to tell the world of what you see, feel & hear! - I have no objections – In fact it is contribution to make the learned aware of what lies ahead in crude oil prices go through the roof – It is already happening.
I believe there is a good chance of them crossing the 80 $ mark – It will be the biggest economic crisis mankind has ever faced – One world war veteran was telling me – Such prices were unheard during the wars – They said it is day light robbery ! – While the big 3 would still roll out gas guzzlers in the name of ……….? Technical progress & the transition into Hi-breds? Who is to blame?
You could ask and put forward this question by saying imagine if all the cars had the simple design change would it make a difference ?
Warm regards,
Sing !!!0 -
Lee O'Dell wrote:There was a discusion at our last chapter meeting about the 262 head on the 308. Dany mentioned that he and some others had problems with carbon build up using the 262 head on the 308 engine. Dany was explaining the modification needed to cure the carbon build up problem. After the modification was made, there was an increase in HP because of more turbulance which resulted in better combustion efficency. I believe he gave Randy Mass credit for the modification.
If you do decided to have the 262 heads made you might want to include the modifications into the new design. Dany Spring or Randy Mass might be willling to share the information with you.
Have a good day. Lee
Part two of Mr Rudy Bennetts comments about this modification:
The bibliography used in Mr. Shing's 2005 email to Mr Bennett
1 Purpose; Principle; Advantages; Discussion of Pre-Ignition, "Ping and Detonation"; After-Burning Fuel;
The " Importance of Turbulence " !
The subject of "turbulence, an aid to fuel distribution," is briefly discussed on page 115. The subject of "flame propagation" is briefly given on pages 290 and 301, and on pages 1054, 116 "compression ratio" is discussed. On page SO6 the purpose, principle and advantage of the Ricardo head is briefly discussed. All of these subjects are closely allied with carburetion.
The subjects of turbulence and combustion chamber design are considered of great importance iii engine design and the story of the development of the Ricardo L-head engine design is reprinted below.'
"Ever since the first lazy flame was persuaded to work, man has persistently endeavored ' to speed it up and by so doing, increase its usefulness '.
"While recognizing the importance of flame-speed, engineers have only recently recognized the necessity of precisely controlling the speed of the flame with reference to the speed of their engines.
"Generally the public wants acceleration, so-called "get away," power and economy.
"The usual procedure has been to go to large valves giving heavier charge, increase in compression, and improvements in carburetor design.
"With each step along this line while greater power and acceleration were available, greater economy was not apparent, the knocking tendency of fuels limiting the possible compression.
"After studying the problem we were convinced that the limitation of modern engines was in the combustion chamber, where the real job of converting the energy of the fuel into useful power was accomplished.
"We reviewed the art and reconsidered this well-known fact, that ii, 190(1, Sir Dugald Clerk discovered that when the explosive mixture was in the state of agitation or turbulence the charge burned with great promptness, resulting in higher power and efficiency.
"He proved that the only reason why high speeds were possible with any engine ' was due to turbulence of the mixture'.
Pre-Ignition and "Ping"
There are other features of combustion chambers which limit the useful return from fuels and the pleasure of performance.
"Our engineers began an investigation as to the causes of pre-ignition and ping in an engine burning the present-day gasoline.
`During this research, which extended over a period of years, they evolved the detonation theory now accepted (see footnote 2).
"They discovered the influence of hotspots in the combustion chamber.
"They noted the influence of spark-plug location and the value of multiple-spark plugs.
"They found the influence of firing in a compact combustion chamber.
"They first noted the facts which led to the bouncing-pin and methods of measuring detonation.
"They noted the effects of long flame travel.
"They noted the effect of the combustion chamber in producing greater acceleration of combustion, and they noted the improved carburetion effect of turbulence due to the cylinder walls and mixture temperatures being the donnnating factors in carburetion.
"Then flintily come to the conclusion that the charge must be as compact as possible cued the hate of the flame to the farthest end of the effective combustion chamber as short as is possible.
After-Burning Fuel
"Among the more important phenomena observed in their research on combustion chambers was the effect known as after-burning.
"With the usual forms of combustion chambers there is always an intensely bright flame of great heat passing the exhaust valve and filling the exhaust manifold. Investigators have long known that where the flame from the exhaust reaches out into the air there was combustion continuing too late to contribute power to the piston.
"To be fully effective the flame must contribute its heat to the mixture during the period known as the tinge of explosion; namely, from the moment the spark juleps until the moment of maximum pressure.
"Lying over the wall surfaces and covered with flame, there is ' a stagnant layer of gas ' known by engineers and scientists to exist, in which combustion is never effective.
Fig. 1. (A) Indicates a (lark stagnant layer in a lazy moving ntiytti're approximately 11„ Melt thick, constituting in a combustion chamber between 8 and 12 per cent of the total volume of useful fuel. This layer burns too slowly to contribute its power to the piston before the exhaust valve is open.
Fig. 2. (B) Indicates the practical elimination of this dark, stagnant layer, due to turbulence in a Ricardo head by driving this gas layer out into the body of the flame. Thus the 8 to 12 per cent of otherwise wasted fuel is made to burn in time to contribute power to the piston rather than heat to the exhaust.
Reprinted by permission from booklet, The Ricardo Mead, copyrighted by Waukesha Motor Co., Waukesha, Wis. Ricardo heads have been used since 11123 on all Waukesha engines and are manufactured under U.S. patent No. 1,474,003, owned by above company. Ricardo replacement heads can be obtained from this company for Ford cars, Ford trucks, Fordson tractors, Dodge cars, and Dodge-Uraltam trucks and many other cars.
2 The now accepted theory of detonation is that the knock is due to a secondary explosion caused by an extraordinarily high pressure or compression, due to too long a flame run front the point of ignition to the combustion chamber wall.
Detonation is not a spark knock. About one one-thousandth of a second after the mixture has been ignited, the ' detonation takes place '. Then the pressure in the combustion chamber jumps front a low pressure to a very high pressure. It is this sudden secondary explosion which makes the ping. Elimination of this ping was the initial purpose of the Ricardo head ' which creates turbulence '.
A lot of thinking has gone into it and will be followed by a lot more, sing !!!0 -
Interesting. I have seen these before referred to as "sommender grooves"0
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TwinH wrote:Interesting. I have seen these before referred to as "sommender grooves"
You will note in Mr. Bennett's information that the person with whom he is working is: Somender Singh0 -
I stand corrected. I should have been more careful on my wording. I should have wrote that Dany learned of the modification from Randy M.
Thanks for sharing who the originators of this modification are, and sharing how it is done. Also, the pictures are very helpful.
Sorry about the error. At least the important information is out there again for the new comers to Hudson. It was new information to me and I wanted to shared it with others. The only 2 people I knew were Dany and Randy that could help.
Lee0 -
Intriguing! I have problems with my '54 Jet pinging very badly when pulling hard, even when using premium gas. We have three grades here, 91, 95 and 98, and using 98 minimises the problem but it is still there when I tow my caravan and it gets a bit over normal temperature. Using 91 it just rattles its' head off. It means I have to back off and go slower up the hills, which is a bit frustrating. The block and head have both been machined, and this has obvioulsy raised the c.r. somehat. i must try this mod and see what happens. Thanks for sharing it with us.0
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Who is Somender Singh? I have heard of Ricardo but I thought that applied to overhead technology. I wonder how this principle would be applied to an overhead chamber. Randy Maas is doing a set of custom carburators for my car and putting together a used Clifford head. I am going to run this by him and see what he says.0
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Hey Guys,
I have been unable to open the picture. Anyone got it off site that I can acces.
Thanks, Bruce0 -
TwinH wrote:Interesting. I have seen these before referred to as "sommender grooves"
I also dabble in hot rod Cadillac engines( 68-76 472-500 cid) and watched
a thread on these "grooves" on the Cadillac board go so bad that the topic
was banned from discussion... Granted,I may be a little skeptical by nature
but I still find the subject intriguing. I have not experimented with these
myself, nor have I seen any definitive (scientific) evidence of their worth.
That being said I would love to see a Hudson done half and half, 3 cylinders
grooved and 3 normal. Drive it, thrash it, and see if it makes a difference
on the same engine.0 -
thinking about re-casting these heads and one modification I would like to see made is to move the spark plug hole. I feel that it needs to be located at the front edge of the intake valve so you can position the electrode gap at the center of the cylinder.
My Clifford head has the spark plugs moved towards the intake valve somewhat and it really makes a difference in performance and consistency.
One thing I like is that moving the spark plug to the area I suggest it allows the curved area of the electrode that will become very hot cool down by the intake charge coming into the cylinder on the intake stroke. Leaving the plug where it is now over the exhaust valve must make these plugs run very hot that may lead to detonation. I align my curved electrode area as close as possible to the center of the intake valve. Forgot to do that on the last set of plugs and they looked totally different.
Made a .200 second difference in the 1/8 mile times. Variance all day on runs is only .006 seconds. Yep only .006 seconds. never gotten down that low. previous best was .011 seconds.
Just a thought but you might look at a picture of a Clifford head and compare it to the picture of the slotted 232 head.
later,
PaceRacer500 -
PaceRacer50 wrote:thinking about re-casting these heads and one modification I would like to see made is to move the spark plug hole. I feel that it needs to be located at the front edge of the intake valve so you can position the electrode gap at the center of the cylinder.
My Clifford head has the spark plugs moved towards the intake valve somewhat and it really makes a difference in performance and consistency.
One thing I like is that moving the spark plug to the area I suggest it allows the curved area of the electrode that will become very hot cool down by the intake charge coming into the cylinder on the intake stroke. Leaving the plug where it is now over the exhaust valve must make these plugs run very hot that may lead to detonation. I align my curved electrode area as close as possible to the center of the intake valve. Forgot to do that on the last set of plugs and they looked totally different.
Made a .200 second difference in the 1/8 mile times. Variance all day on runs is only .006 seconds. Yep only .006 seconds. never gotten down that low. previous best was .011 seconds.
Just a thought but you might look at a picture of a Clifford head and compare it to the picture of the slotted 232 head.
later,
PaceRacer50
If a 232 style head was made (w/ slot modification) and spark plug relocated like the Clifford head , I'd buy one!0 -
The plugs in the Essex were shifted from over the intake valve, to over the exhaust valve in 1929, and that is where they stayed from then on. The thinking was that the plugs actually run cooler in this position, as over the intake valve they are in a blind spot as far as intake air is concerned. Situated over the exhaust valve, the incoming cold air will cool the spark plug better, as conversely, the hot exhaust gases are directed more around the sides of the combustion chamber. All very theoretical of course!0
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Geoff,
You make a very valid point... I want to see the plug moved towards the cylinder more and almost in the center of the transfer slot area in the combustion chamber in the cylinder head.
the clifford is a little better than stock but my valves are real close to the electrode.
I really thing with the groves, which I have seen on the high powered single cylinder flatheads in the junior dragsters there is quite a lot of new technology that can be intergrated into a killer Hudson drag race engine.
time looks to be about right for that soon too...
thanks,
PaceRacer500 -
guys attached is a photo from a member about 6-7 years ago of the Clifford combustion chamber showing the spark plug location.
thanks,
PaceRacer500 -
464Saloon wrote:Who is Somender Singh? I have heard of Ricardo but I thought that applied to overhead technology. I wonder how this principle would be applied to an overhead chamber. Randy Maas is doing a set of custom carburators for my car and putting together a used Clifford head. I am going to run this by him and see what he says.
There is much information about him and slotted heads on Somender Singh.com and additional links.
While brousing, I came across a youtoob demonstration showing how to slot heads. It looks so easy I believe most anyone could do it.
There are many photos of slotted heads: Hudson head, V8 heads, lawnmower head, stock and modified Chevy, Ford, Dodge heads, race heads, exotic 4 ro 6 valves per cylinder heads. Any head with a squash area was slotted. Even some slotted pistons.
There was one link about 14 pages long discussing the slotted heads. It boiled down to ruffly 3 basic groups.
1. Those that tried the slotted heads had favorable comments.
2. Those who want to wait and see. Some had to see absolute guarantee scientific proof from the best scientist minds using the best scientific equipment. Even then I think a few of them might still slide into the third group.
3. Those that will never believe slotted heads will work.
Out of all that dialog there was not one negative comment from anyone that tried the slotted heads.
One positive benifit, stated over and over, was the elimination of detonation.
I tend to slide towards group one, because I know someone who has tried it and it works for him.
Interestin stuff. Lee0
This discussion has been closed.
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