BRAKES

[Deleted User]
edited November -1 in HUDSON
IN READING IN THE MAGAZINE,"CARS AND PARTS" IT STATES THAT THE LARGER PAD SHOULD BE THE PRIMERY SHOE, THE ONE IN FRONT WHEN I THOUGHT THE LARGER ONE SHOULD BE IN BACK. THIS WOULD BE ON STEP DOWNS. DO THE EXPERTS ON THIS FORUM AGREE?

Comments

  • brumac
    brumac Expert Adviser
    That is correct. It also applies to all cars prior to disc brakes.

    Bruce
  • Bruce = That would be true with all cars with Bendix Type One brakes ( like stepdown Hudsons ) But not true with all cars with drum brakes. Norm
  • brumac
    brumac Expert Adviser
    Correct, and I am forgetting about the Chrysler products with center-plane brakes and the twin single ended front cylinders too. Lots of memories there. Bruce
  • The short shoe always goes on the front side and the long shoe goes on the rear side. This is on every wheel. Walt.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    Can you give me a logical explanation why this should be so Walt? The Jet and '55 Wasp instruction manuals show the long lining on the leading shoe. Whynot have equal linings on both shoes?
  • When You Hit the brakes, the weight transfers to the front, provided you are going forward, this puts more pressure on the front shoe, thus the longer shoe has more stopping power.Not many folks drive at highway speeds in reverse. I know this is very simplified, but there have been many pages of info written by engineers on why the longer shoe is on the front but this is the bare basics as I understand them.
    Bob
  • Richie
    Richie Senior Contributor
    I worked on the 40's thru the 60"s Ford products and 50"s & 60"s Mopars all had the short shoe in the front. I'm not sure about any other mfgs.Richie.
  • My $.02 worth - Why would one shoe have longer lining than the other? It must do more of the braking work. My understsnding is that the direction of the rotation of the drum and the way the shoes are anchored to the backing plate has a effect on the braking action. If the shoes are anchored at the bottom (away from the wheel cylinder, at the top) The front shoe will have a "wedging" or self energising effect against the rotating drum, which the rear shoe wouldn't. So the front shoe would do more of the stoping work, thus the longer lining. On the Bendix brakes on our stepdowns the anchor is at the top (above the wheel cyl.) so the rear shoe has the self energising effect and has the longer lining.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    Okay, let's theorise a bit more. On Bendix brakes the two shoes are joined together at the bottom, hence the servo action would be equal on both shoes, so I can't see any point in a longer or shorter lining. On the Jet the Wagner Lockheed brakes have floating shoes, with the bottom end limiting on a fixed peg, and the top end against the flat of the piston. Surely, in the interests of maximum braking effort it would be logical to have as much lining as possible on each shoe. The only thing I can see is that with a shorter lining on the trailing shoe the wear would perhaps equalise with the leading shoe, but have much less braking effort. If the leading shoe had the shorter lining it would surely wear much faster?
  • Let them install the long shoe on the front side and watch what happens when going at highway speeds, when you have to make a fast stop. The short shoe is the primary, which applies braking to the drum first, then forces the secondary to contact the full shoe to the drum and this is where the braking action comes in. If you will notice that is the shoe that wears out before the front lining. Enough said, let todays mechanics do their work and us old timers get to do them over. I just finished a brake job on a 1953 Super Wasp that was done in a local garage, guess what, long shoe on front and the guy never knew where he was going when he hit the brakes. I can show you the guys answer after I corrected the brakes, and yes, they rebuilt the cylinders and all were leaking. I use only all new parts, cylinders, master cylinder, flex lines and the correct shoes. Right now I'm lining up all new parts to do a brake job on a 1939 Hudson Country Club Sedan, 6 cylinder. Expensive yes, but you will stop straight. Walt.
  • superwasp912
    superwasp912 Member
    edited October 2010
    Thank The Lord for Old Timers! what is the secret for adjusting shoe to drum clearance? J.R.
  • It's too long to write a quick story, as there is about 6 adjustments that need to be done in order. If you have my tech tip books, go to Volume two (2) page 15, and there is the complete story on setting Hudson brakes from 1936 to 1954. if not you can find someone that has them. I still sell these books. Walt.
  • 48super6
    48super6 Senior Contributor
    I agree with Walt- short shoe is the primary (front) shoe. I also recall that, depending on the manufacturer, the primary shoe was often a lighter color because it had a different compound, so you would sometimes get equal length shoes but two different colored linings (you'd sometimes get two different lengths in two colors, also). Again rule of thumb was short shoe or lighter color went to the front. Usually, the front shoe was marked on the side of the lining with the letters "PRI" or the word "PRIMARY", but I haven't seen it in years on any of the replacement linings I've gotten for the older cars. Other manufacturers may have used different systems, but this is what I recall for the Hudsons, Ramblers, & AMCs I worked on.
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    I agree with Walt, The servo action on brakes that are floating at the bottom work best with short shoe on front. long on back.It's been that way since I started busting knuckles in the 50's.That is what all the old manuals tell you.
    And a word from another "old timer".. Shoes and pads are NOT the same thing. Please don't refer to shoes as pads.. it confuses us old farts.:S
  • MikeWA
    MikeWA Senior Contributor
    I think Walt did another post on long and short shoes that was meant for this thread, but it ended up as the last post on the Air Conditioning thread. I'd have taken the liberty of moving it over here, if I knew how.
  • Thanks to You Old Timers. I appologize for the misinformation I posted before. I also have to say thanks for setting me straight. I don't wish to supply any info that might get someone hurt or to hurt someones car.
    Thanks again,
    Bob
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    I go along with the aforementioned as pertaining to Bendix brakes, but nobody has addressed the question of the Wagner Lockheed system (used on the Jet and Hash Wasp) where the shoes are not joined together. The pictures in the parts catalog and workshop manuals show the longer lining on the leading shoe, but there is no mention in the instructions about this. When I first bought my Jet 41 years ago, the front brakes had the short shoe leading, and the rears had the short shoe trailing, someone has got it wrong somewhere. some say short to the front to give equal braking effort, and others say to the rear to give equal wear. I have yet to see an authoritative statement, giving reasons, as to which is the correct orientation.
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    I go along with the aforementioned as pertaining to Bendix brakes, but nobody has addressed the question of the Wagner Lockheed system (used on the Jet and Hash Wasp) where the shoes are not joined together. The pictures in the parts catalog and workshop manuals show the longer lining on the leading shoe, but there is no mention in the instructions about this. When I first bought my Jet 41 years ago, the front brakes had the short shoe leading, and the rears had the short shoe trailing, someone has got it wrong somewhere. some say short to the front to give equal braking effort, and others say to the rear to give equal wear. I have yet to see an authoritative statement, giving reasons, as to which is the correct orientation.

    Geoff, As far as I can figure.. it shouldn't make any difference and If you think about it.. Why not just have the same amount of surface on both shoes ? That would give more brake surface. There is no action-reaction between the front and back shoes on those (Lockheed) cars. Maybe the shoe manufacturers/rebuilders make the shoes that way so they can be used interchangeably on the floating type (Bendix) brakes...?
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    That is exactly what I have done, using full length linings on both shoes on the front brakes, and intend doing the same shortly when I reline the back brakes. I can see no reason at all for the different lengths on this braking system. On my '29 Hudson I used moulded linings on the leading shoe and woven on the trailing, shoe, and this gave excellent stopping power. I also used woven linings on my '28 Essex which has the three-shoe Bendix system and these worked fine when dry but grabbed viciously when wet. I now use moulded linings on the two linked shoes, and woven on the auxilary shoe, and this works extremely well.
  • faustmb
    faustmb Senior Contributor
    edited October 2010
    Here is a link to a previous thread on the Primary/ Secondary shoe setup

    http://classiccar.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=13&id=17158&Itemid=129#17158

    It's a good sign when the final result is the same :)

    Matt
  • tigermoth
    tigermoth Expert Adviser
    with the talk of front and rear..my '35 service manual talks about first shoe in direction of wheel rotation from the anchor pin. are the step downs different in this regard? thanks, tom
This discussion has been closed.