Automatic to Manual OD Tranny
My Hydramatic went out a few weeks ago ('51 Hornet). I've been talking with Gus Souza about an exchange transmission, but now I'm entertaining the idea of converting over to a 3-speed manual with overdrive.
Any one done this?
Any guidance on possible source of parts?
Will my differential ratio be okay for a manual?
Phil
Austin
Any one done this?
Any guidance on possible source of parts?
Will my differential ratio be okay for a manual?
Phil
Austin
0
Comments
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You either have to change the 3rd crossmember, welded in, or the entire subframe, welded and bolted in. Go for a rebuilt Hydro, you'll spend less money and effort in the long run.0
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As has been said the gearbox support crossmember is different between the manual and hydramatic cars. It may be possible to alter another bolt in hydramatic crossmember to take the manual gearbox mounting pad, and clutch shaft bracket. There are other details to consider, flywheel, starter motor etc.
The suitability of your diff ratio depends on what you have. If you have the typical 3.08 hydramatic rear end, with OD engaged you will have an effective final drive of 2.2, great for mileage and flat country running, but hopeless for hills and acceleration. A 4.11 rear end and OD will give you about a 2.9 final drive which will work well.0 -
Don't forget that you will have to add shifting mechanism as well as clutch stuff..An Overhaul of your present transmission is by far the best solution. It lasted over 50 years the first time! There is a fellow in greenville S.C. that can also do your transmission . Henny..Greenville Transmissions.E-mail Address gnvltran@bellsouth.net. A very active transmission shop for all makes, but the owner is an Antique car guy and has his own space in the shop for "playing'...
He did a 54 HydraMatic transmission for me. When i got it home, all i had to do was install it and add fluid.. shifts perfectly...Price was less then Gus....Very experienced and Not a youngster.. Has a collection of great cars including Hudson. Very active in AACA.:)0 -
I heartily agree with Dave's recommendation for rebuilder Henny Jacobs at Greenville Transmissions. Super guy, and really knows his stuff. If you're wanting to get a bit better highway gearing, I suggest you stay with the Hydramatic but have it changed over to the Dual-Range type (I think it's just a valve body change, plus the different "4-3" indicator on the steering column), then swap out your rear axle assembly for the one they used from '52 on ... 3.07 ratio (Your '51 would have come with 3.58 gears). Another benefit of the later axle is that it doesn't have those hard to find and expensive axle bearings.
The dual range feature was done in '52 because the Hydra's get into 4th gear fairly quickly, so when they went with the 3.07 axle gearing, one could find himself at 35 mph in 4th gear and wanting to accelerate, but the gearing was just too high. The dual range feature lets you keep it out of 4th when you're in "town driving" conditions.0 -
Park is right about the advantages of going over to the dual-range transmission in that it can be locked in third gear for town and driving in hill country. I'm running a '53 3.07 rear end in my '51 Hornet with the single range H-51, and it does just fine in the flat part of south LA in which I live. Because the H-50 and H-51 transmissions were made for the 3.58 rear end, you would need to have a ratio adapter to get a good speedo reading with the older trans. These are readily available but cost about a hundred bucks. This would be taken care of with the newer transmission.
I see too that NADA adds 15% to their price estimates for the hydro option - whatever that's worth.
Walt-LA0 -
I'M HAVING TROUBLES WITH MY HYDRAMATIC ALSO,I HAVE A TRANS OUT OF A '52 THAT IS DUAL RANGE,MY CAR IS A '54 WITH DUAL RANGE.CAN THE '52 TRANS JUST BOLT UP OR IS THIS GOING TO BE A MISTAKE.MY THOUGHT IS TO GET THE '54 TRANS REBUILT BUT USE THE '52 WHILE I WAIT.0
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Thanks for all your input. I've given lots of thought to this, and had long conversations with a couple of long-time Hudson tinkerers, and am now firmly committed to a change-over to the manual OD.
I believe I've been fully well educated enough now that I do understand all the nuances, bits and pieces, and costs of the conversion.
I've just read too many complaints, and talked to too many hydramatic owners who experienced the same issues I have... extremely hard shifts, upshift way to early so you're stuck in 3rd gear at 5 mph, etc. Besides, I've always enjoyed the tactile feel and man-vs-machine interface with the manual trannies.
I have an old Studebaker truck with 3 on the tree and OD (i'm told very similar to the Hudson units), and find it very enjoyable to drive. As far as the Diff ratio being a bit tall, well, at 10 mpg with the Twin Hornet, I need all the cruising help I can get.. and if I need more oomph on the hills, well, that's what the OD was made for.
Finally, I must beg to differ with one commenter's statement: "It lasted 50 years, should last another 50".... when I started yesterday to remove the hydramatic from my car, I found, on the torque converter dust cover, written in Magic Marker: "Overhauled in 2002 by ...... Bill Albright"
Guess 50 years was a bit too much for this one!
I'll keep you all posted on progress.
Phil, Austin0 -
DocHornet wrote:I've just read too many complaints, and talked to too many hydramatic owners who experienced the same issues I have... extremely hard shifts, upshift way to early so you're stuck in 3rd gear at 5 mph, etc.
Is this your complaint?
those are symptoms of needing an adjustment on the thorotle pressure rod or a bad arm where the arm conects to the transmission.
do you have the correct bell crank for twin H and hydramatic? have you tuned up - set timing, idle, synced carbs etc and then adjusted the rod per the book? take that as a starting point and then tweak further until the shifts are at the proper time.
the arm is swaged onto the shaft that comes out through the valve body and can come loose. check that out as well.
if you do opt for the swap I wouldn't advise without a parts car as you'll have a long list of pieces you will need and then you will still have a few calls to make for the missing parts. (but i'd join the crowd that says to fix the hydramatic or just find a used to swap in. they are robust and unless the car was parked due to a bad transmission, you probably can change the front seal buy some new fluid and stick it in and be good to go0 -
A week after posting specific questions concerning my stated INTENT to replace the failed Hydramatic in my '51 Hornet to a 3 speed manual/OD, I find that most all I got was opinions.
It seems that some contributors to the forum would rather argue about unrelated subjects than provide useful responses to a posted question or issue.
Yes, I believe I've fully educated myself on the parts and effort and expense necessary to make this conversion.
I'm no mechanical genius, but in the past 6 years or so I've:
[ol]
[li]fully restored a 1972 Ferrari V12,
[/li]
[li] installed a Supra Twin Turbo engine in a Lexus SC300,
[/li]
[li] installed a supercharger on a Honda S2000 roadster,
[/li]
[li]fully rebuilt a cantankerous overhead cam Jaguar XK engine,
[/li]
[li] added air conditioning to a Jaguar MK IX, '51 Hornet, and '65 Corvette (as well as adding power steering),
[/li]
[li]Added dual carbs to my '39 Ford Coupe,
[/li]
[li]switched my 1940 Cadillac from 6V Pos. ground to 12V negative and added air conditioning[/li]
[/ol]
I'm pretty sure I can and will accomplish this task also,despite several of you insisting that I settle for less than what I want in this car.
What WOULD be helpful is if someone could contribute useful information, such as possible sources of a donor car with manual OD to get me started.0 -
Perhaps you got opinions instead of pointers because nobody on here has done it, and everyone thinks it is a bad idea. I know I do- I've got "3 on the tree" in my '48, and hate it. Would love to have something different. Guess if I had a failed Hydramatic, I'd lean toward a more modern automatic, like a 700R4, for which adapter kits are available, to avoid a lot of the problems. But there I go, more opinions, when your mind's already made up. So be it.
You just need a donor car. I'm sure if anyone on here had one, they'd love to unload it, and would let you know. Perhaps an appropriately worded "wanted" post, as well as a free ad in the White Triangle News. Otherwise, you just gotta do it the old fashioned way- start lookin'.0 -
WOW, what a list of complaints. I have a 1954 Hornet with a DR Hydro in it. The transmission was rebuilt in the early 1980's. I have been driving that thing all over the place for 30 years now. NO PROBLEMS! The problems you mention are not with the transmissions, they are with the operator. The same people who don't service and maintain their Hydro would have slipping clutches, bad syncro's and whining gears in an OD. There were many, many cars with these transmissions... many of them are running nicely today.
I once contemplated the same switch for another Hudson. I found that the cross member stubs must be cut out of the automatic car and replaced by a standard cross member, the speedo cable must be changed. The steering column linkages and shifter must be changed; 54's are different than the prior year cars. The pedal assemblies must be changed as well as the bell crank set up for the gas pedal. The position of the ears are different. ON some cars the is a difference in the carb linkages. Install the kick-down switch, the new wiring, eliminate the neutral safety switch, add in the engagement cable and then put in the OD relay. The transmission mounts, Bell housing and flywheel all must be changed. You must put a pilot shaft bushing int the end of the crank shaft.
Of course, if your car has Power brakes you will have to remove them as the PB pedal Assembly with a Clutch pedal is not an common combination. This would involve re-routing the brake, lines. Altering the wiring for the stop light switch and a new master cyl.
There you have it, a full list of the needed conversions Hope this hope and I hope I didn't forget anything
So, if you are doing it, get a 54 OD car as a parts car
PS. I had a friend who drove a 53 Cadillac with a DR Hydro, The care had 250,000 miles on it. He used it to pull his flea market trailer as well as tow home inoperable cars. The neat thing is you could just barely hear/feel the trans shift between gears. Mine has a nice, firm shift and holds first gear until it needs to shift. But the guy who built it for me set it up that way.
There is one problem which frequently occurs. The governor pressure control pawl connected to the shaft of the kick down linkage on the side of the valve body will become unattached. This will keep the pawl from moving and altering the shift pattern based on acceleration and de-acceleration. Many people do not check this and assume it is still good. It doesn't take much to knock it out. Fortunately, it doesn't take much to fix it either. While the valve body is off the transmission, properly align the parts and MIG-weld the inside pawl onto the shaft. Assemble, adjust and drive.0 -
FWIW, Our 1954 Hornet has factory installed power brakes with overdrive and I have seen a few others with p/b and standard.EssexAdv wrote:WOW, what a list of complaints. I have a 1954 Hornet with a DR Hydro in it. The transmission was rebuilt in the early 1980's. I have been driving that thing all over the place for 30 years now. NO PROBLEMS! The problems you mention are not with the transmissions, they are with the operator. The same people who don't service and maintain their Hydro would have slipping clutches, bad syncro's and whining gears in an OD. There were many, many cars with these transmissions... many of them are running nicely today.
I once contemplated the same switch for another Hudson. I found that the cross member stubs must be cut out of the automatic car and replaced by a standard cross member, the speedo cable must be changed. The steering column linkages and shifter must be changed; 54's are different than the prior year cars. The pedal assemblies must be changed as well as the bell crank set up for the gas pedal. The position of the ears are different. ON some cars the is a difference in the carb linkages. Install the kick-down switch, the new wiring, eliminate the neutral safety switch, add in the engagement cable and then put in the OD relay. The transmission mounts, Bell housing and flywheel all must be changed. You must put a pilot shaft bushing int the end of the crank shaft.
Of course, if your car has Power brakes you will have to remove them as the PB pedal Assembly with a Clutch pedal is not an common combination. This would involve re-routing the brake, lines. Altering the wiring for the stop light switch and a new master cyl.
There you have it, a full list of the needed conversions Hope this hope and I hope I didn't forget anything
So, if you are doing it, get a 54 OD car as a parts car
PS. I had a friend who drove a 53 Cadillac with a DR Hydro, The care had 250,000 miles on it. He used it to pull his flea market trailer as well as tow home inoperable cars. The neat thing is you could just barely hear/feel the trans shift between gears. Mine has a nice, firm shift and holds first gear until it needs to shift. But the guy who built it for me set it up that way.
There is one problem which frequently occurs. The governor pressure control pawl connected to the shaft of the kick down linkage on the side of the valve body will become unattached. This will keep the pawl from moving and altering the shift pattern based on acceleration and de-acceleration. Many people do not check this and assume it is still good. It doesn't take much to knock it out. Fortunately, it doesn't take much to fix it either. While the valve body is off the transmission, properly align the parts and MIG-weld the inside pawl onto the shaft. Assemble, adjust and drive.0 -
I HAVE A '54 SUPER WASP WITH THE 3 SPEED WITH OVER DRIVE IN IT.I HAVE THE FLOOR BOARD OUT OF IT RIGHT NOW DO YOU WANT A COULPLE PICTURES,I GUESS YOU KNOW THE FLOOR BOARDS IN THE AUTOMATICS ARE 1 PIECE.0
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Well, in spite of all the naysayers, I was able to successfully convert my '51 Hornet Club Coupe over from Hydramatic to 3-speed manual with Overdrive. Yes, it took a bit of work (about a 4 month project), but as far as I'm concerned, the effort was well worth it. Now I can actually enjoy driving my Hornet every time I get it in.
When all was said and done, discounting my own labor, my overall cost was just about the same as paying to have the Hydramatic overhauled (somewhere in the $1,500 range). The project was expedited by acquiring a donor car for all the parts I needed (cost included in the total above).
I couldn't be happier with the results, and glad I listened to my own inner voice rather than other opinions.
For anyone else interested in this project, I wrote up an article discussing the whole process, and can be read here AustinClassicLimo.com/transmissiion conversion.pdf0 -
Great article! Thanks0
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Walt here; The problems with hydro is neglect, fluid must be changed every 30,000 miles, but with todays cars not driven every day, fluid must be changed every 3 years. Bands must be adjusted every 6 years, and throttle linkage adjusted as needed and make sure linkage arm on side of trans is tight. The problem lies here, who knows what was done by owners before you got the car. My 53 has 227.000 miles and still all original, I did a complete rebuild, took 5 years and finished in 1998. had 87,000 when started and has been driven 140,000 since. 11 trips ocean to ocean and every National in those years. Had to miss this year as the doc told me not to take the wife on the long trip, back problem. Trans is still original as it was not rebuilt during restoration. I changed rear ratio to 2:73 and still get 22 miles per on highway driving. I have a load of longest distance driven trophies, and anybody in the Nor-Cal club can tell you, I drive this car.0
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I just finished going the other way: replacing a single-lever three-speed in a '54 Hornet sedan with a Dual-Range Hydra. (Car left the factory with a B/W which failed somewhere along the way). The AT cars all had bolt in crossmembers. I still have a stick-shift flywheel and a bolt-in crossmember modified for a std. transmission mount, if you want to buy them. However, if you are going to change over I reccommned putting in a double-lever OD ( which is correct for that car), and changing your rear-end ratio.
Personally, I couldn't be happier with the Hydra-Matic. (Mine came out of a '53). To change to a std you will also need a new front driveshaft, new linkage, a wiring harness for the OD, etc. etc. etc. People have different feelings about this, but I drove this car for 7 years with a straight three-speed (no OD) and a 3.07:1 rear end, and it was miserable....Have Gus fix your Hydramatic.0 -
Whoops, sorry. Forget that "double-lever" stuff. Thought your car was a later model. I do have some shifter parts and other things (flywheel, cross-member) if you plan to go ahead, but make sure it's what you want to do first. The main reasons I went back to Hydramatic were a) it was the correct tranny for the car, b) reliablility, and c) driveability. Walt's right. With proper maintenance the Hydramatics will hold up for a long time...bob0
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