Engine Rebuild Questions

hudsonguy · December 2005

I'm in the process of rebuilding my '49 262 motor, and had a couple of questions for the panel of Hudson experts.

Unfortunately, I discovered a rather large crack thru the #6 intake valve seat area. It also extends down into the cylinder bore around .350" (I tried attaching pic's, but they're too big for the upload feature)

I was planning on boring the cylinders (probably .030?), as they have up to a .013 taper to them after 125,000 miles. (I measured the diameters at top/bottom, this is the difference). I had planned on cleaning up the deck surfaces, and I was going to install hardened valve seats. I also wanted to 'relieve' the block in these valve to bore areas as is done on many Hudson engines. Unfortunately, I would only be removing about .170" in relieving the block, and the crack is .350" deep into the bore. It stops right about the top of the ring travel area. I'm wondering if this crack can all but be removed, then repaired before the hardened valve seats are installed. Can this then be welded, since I'm boring and decking anyway? Or is my block not worth repairing? As far as I know this is the only thing wrong with it. Obviously, I haven't hot tanked and magnafluxed it yet. The motor basically ran good, I put 12,000 miles on it over the last two years. I just wanted to freshen up the motor with new internals, which is why I took it apart in the first place.

Thanks as always for your sage advice,

Hudsonly,

Doug

[Deleted User] · December 2005

Assuming it is the original engine, if you can salvage the original block and keep the matching numbers then thats what I'd do. If you do use a different block, keep the old block should you ever sell the car. Some collectors are picky about this. Niels

Park_W · December 2005

Doug, the advice here is certainly useful, but you mostly need to talk to the shop that would be doing the work on your block ... they're ultimately the ones who'll know what's feasible, after they inspect it. Regarding the valve seats, unless you're going to go racing or pull a big trailer with it, there's really no reason to install hardened inserts except for the cracked one. The valve/valve seat recession problem is greatly overblown, especially for Hudsons through '54.

Unknown · December 2005

Park W wrote:

Doug, the advice here is certainly useful, but you mostly need to talk to the shop that would be doing the work on your block ... they're ultimately the ones who'll know what's feasible, after they inspect it. Regarding the valve seats, unless you're going to go racing or pull a big trailer with it, there's really no reason to install hardened inserts except for the cracked one. The valve/valve seat recession problem is greatly overblown, especially for Hudsons through '54.

Park W-

Pardon for the ignorance, but aren't hardened seats necessary for today's unleaded gas? I thought that un-hardened seats generate too much heat on today's fuel and burn up valves faster than necessary. Fill me in . . .

Russell

Aaron D. IL · December 2005

Hudson made their entire engine blocks out of hardened chromium alloy FROM THE FACTORY therefore there is really no need for hardened seats. Aren't you glad you bought a Hudson RL ????? LOL another reason they probably went out of business.

Unknown · December 2005

Aaron D. IL wrote:

Hudson made their entire engine blocks out of hardened chromium alloy FROM THE FACTORY therefore there is really no need for hardened seats. Aren't you glad you bought a Hudson RL ????? LOL another reason they probably went out of business.

YES! Along with many other reasons. This brings up a new set of questions, though. With the hardened chromium alloy, what does that do to the tensile strength of the block . . . the denser the metal, the more susceptible it would be to shattering. Would that make it more prone to crack, break, have a rod go out the side, or less so? Or is it that the difference is negligible? Why? How tough is it to weld to the block?

Russell

Unknown · December 2005

wow, cracks scare me... especially one that sounds fairly deep.

I would really consider looking for another good block, if this is an option.

Perhaps a 308 would be a nice change?

Ultimately, if a machine shop can say it can be fixed and not become a problem later, and if the above is not an option, then have it fixed. I would have to think that even fixing it should be cheaper than finding another block.

but if it ran good and you decide to find another block, save it, someone might want to use it in the car again, but for the most part, hudson folks don't seem overly absorbed in numbers matching, but it will probably change one of these days.

Aaron D. IL · December 2005

True Hudson folks are far less concerned about numbers matching.....most of use are just glad to see those engines and those cars on the road again. In the bigger picture why should a few stamped numbers matter?

harry54 · December 2005

Araron, I agree . The best thing about Hudson's are that 51-96 years later these cars are still on the Road and running . The second best thing is that most of the cars are running with period correct running gear. This , in my opinion , is amazing. The loyalty to the History and experience of the drive is unparalelled. You can't find another brand that is driven as much . I drive my 54 sedan about 5,000 miles a year and get depressed when the weather won't permit. Just keep em rollin.......

[Deleted User] · December 2005

Park is right, go down to a good machine shop and show them what you have got. They should be able to weld the block and maybe sleeve that bad cylinder.

And you don't put hardened valve seats in a Hudson block. As Aaron states the block is harder than any seats you can buy. If you have seat wear do a good valve job and you are good to go.

And no hard chrome blocks are not more susceptible to tensile stress. The Hudson engineers did a great job of getting the right mix in the pouring process to create a durable engine that could be precision machined. Hudson engines like the car were over engineered because this was the Hudson philosophy. The tolerances on the Hudson engines were the best in the business. To me a Hudson engine is a work of art.

Uncle Josh · December 2005

Rule of thumb is, unless you're gonna run it hot and hard over 3000 rpm forget the hardened seats. That's for engines without the Chrome alloy of the Hudson engines.

3000 rpm for my 49 Commadore with 4.56 rear and OD is 82 mph.

mars55 · December 2005

Cracked engine blocks can be repaired. There is a nice discussion on the subject on the Chrysler Imperial club's web site:

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Engine/block.htm

Two vendors that repair engine blocks:

http://www.castironrepair.com/

http://www.locknstitch.com

Geoff · December 2005

As mentioned, there are ways to repair a cracked block. One is by cold process, and there are two methods used for this, one using overlapping plugs, individually drilled and tapped, and the other using a locking device similar in principle to a wood joiner. The holes are drilled in with a jig, a groove ground along the top, and the locking piece driven down which pulls the assembly together. Or you can get the block welded, which involves pre-heating the whole block and metal spraying new cast iron into the affected area. Both processes involve getting the block surface ground afterwards if the crack is in the top area. Good luck,

Geoff.

coverton · December 2005

There is a patented proceedure called "Superweld" Ol fellow that is dead got it patented years ago but the proceedure works. You can call Perkins Superweld at 919-735-1862 for some experienced advice. I am not sure of the current owners name but he does quite a bit of government diesel work of this nature. Might be too far to consider ?

[Deleted User] · December 2005

If you don't need the hardened valve seats on a Hudson block, is there any advantage to the stainless steel valves a lot of Guys seem to be using, or should a Guy just use the stock ones? Also, if a groove is cut in the block from valves to cylinders, as per 7x specs, what is done at the valve seats? Is it just a little thinner in the area where the valve seats along the edge of this groove? If you add hardened valve seats to a block being done up to 7x specs, do you then have to "relieve" the seat where the new grooves are cut??

silverone.

[Deleted User] · December 2005

Stock valves are ok but the SS ones take the heat better. When you use SS or even the stock ones make sure your guides are in good shape or replace them. If you are going to do the 7X relief you will probably be machining the valve seats to 2" inlet and 1 11/16 exhaust. The valve area angles in towards the cylinder. For the relief you remove the area in front of the valves the actual valve area will be slighlty releaved and the bigger seats machined in. Russ has posted some nice shots where you can see this in the before and after.

Why would you add hardened seats to a block being done to 7X specs? machine in the new larger valve seats, machine the relief and you will have the job done.

hudsonguy · December 2005

Well, I appreciate all of the ideas and questions so far, and I'd like to keep this thread going, because I'm learning a lot along the way. It is true that if you put 10 Hudsonites in a room together, you'll get 11 opinions!

Right now, I'm leaning toward replacing my original numbers-matching cracked block. It could be repaired (although probably not nearby), but then you never know if it will last or not. I don't think I could trust it. This is my grandpa's old car that I want to be able to drive from coast to coast every year if I so desire (I made it to California and back in 2005!) So even though I'm attached to this original block, I now view it as a big old hunk of ballast (for winter driving in a 2 wheel drive car!)

It seems that 262 blocks aren't that hard to come by. In fact, the minute I realized this crack might be fatal, while still in the garage, I cell-phoned a nearby Chicago-Milwaukee Chapter member friend who I knew had a couple of blocks he was trying to get rid of. Luckily he still had them. So my first hope is that the block that he GAVE me (I'll have to stock his garage refrigerator for him) is a good one. If not, he has a few others, and I know of several still residing in a nearby junkyard. Not the best time of year to access any of these, but that's life in the snow belt.

I'm also keeping my eyes peeled for any affordable, rebuildable 308's in my area, as long as the numbers-matching block is history. I guess which ever direction I go, I still want to hear more about rebuild recommendations that you all have. This is my first Hudson engine rebuild, so I'm all ears.

As always, thanks for all the help.

Hudsonly,

Doug

[Deleted User] · December 2005

I'm also wanting to do a 7x engine this winter and have been watching this thread with interest. The "new valve seat inserts vs. the block material" issue is one I have been debating quite a bit.

I do intend to blast this engine down the dragstrip on occasion, I just can't help myself.

I'm also concerned with the type of insert that would be used. The block material around the intake valve seats looks minimal compared to other flathead types I've worked with. The diameter and thickness of the intake insert can't be as much as a standard insert for the bigger 7x valve diameters.

Interesting thread, thanks for all the discussion so far - looking forward to more.

Mark

Unknown · December 2005

I too am following this thread with interest, as I plan to do a through rebuild on my â€™49 Super Six soon. I notice on the Uncommon Engineering website they mention using Manley stainless steel valves on their 308/X7 HiPo rebuilds. Are there â€œoff the shelfâ€ modern valves, springs, keepers etc that will interchange? After 100K miles and 2 valve jobs I suspect Iâ€™ll be due for new valves and might as well upgrade if parts are available. On the last valve job about 10 years and maybe 2000 miles ago the guy who did the work mentioned that the seats were somewhat recessed. Is there enuf meat on a 262 block to go to the larger 308/X7 size valves? Iâ€™d also be interested in learning of any other internal mods or upgradesâ€¦not so much for high performance but for reliability and longevity.

Any input appreciated,

John

[Deleted User] · December 2005

Both Dale Cooper and Russ Maas have new replacement SS valves, springs and lifters. You should also upgrade your oil pump gear to the bronze type also available from those guys and replace you timing gear and chain to the one Russ or Uncommon Engineering sells.

Click on my website below and hit links all of the Hudson part dealers are listed there.

[Deleted User] · December 2005

check out uncommon engineering. its located in indiana. all he does is work on hudsons and flatheads. he is doing the work on my motor. hell he even has blowers for the hudsons. he has a web site. check it out. may be worth your time.

hudsonguy · December 2005

I wish I had the 'where-with-all' to take my motor to Steve at Uncommon Engineering. You're right, his stuff is incredible. I met him in Madison in 2003. Quite an intriguing guy. Maybe after I win the lottery. I'm much to poor to even think about that, even though his prices seem like real bargains. He knows what the heck he's doing.

A fellow HET'er whom I trust very much has advised me that my block might be fixable by sleeving that cylinder, and installing a hardened valve seat there. I've got the bare block loaded onto my trailer, and will stop by the machine shop probably tomorrow, to see what they say about it.

As far as the hardened valve seat/7X discussion, I had not planned on going to larger valves. First of all, I never said I was doing a 7X in the first place. I just want to 'relieve' the block in the valve area like what's done on 7X motors. I realize other very important components of the 7X 'conversion' are larger valves, cam, main journals, stronger rear axle, etc., etc. That's not at all what I'm trying or able to do at this point. I just want my '49 narrow motor, stock valve 262 to breath a little better and be happy again.

I don't really think there's room on the early narrow motor for much larger valves. I'm pretty sure that when they increased the block width in '51 by .250", the Hudson engineers probably moved the cylinders 'over' away from the valves about .125". I'm just guessing on that one, but it would certainly open up more room for larger valves.

I'll post the results of my visit to the engine rebuilder this week. He might tell me to attach a chain to it, and use it as a boat anchor.....or he might give me hope for this block. After all, it is the original block. I only took it apart because of a noise in the lower end (which reminds me to ask about this too...) this 'crack' in the valve area has been there for at least 12,000 miles. Granted, it needs to go, but it was hardly fatal for me, at least not yet. As always, thanks for the advice and comments. I'm learning a lot, as I usually do on this forum.

Hudsonly,

Doug

hudsonguy · December 2005

I'm in the process of rebuilding my '49 262 motor, as some of you know from another thread, and wanted to ask about something I discovered when I took it apart.

First of all, several times last summer (three as I recall), I experienced what someone described to me as a 'death rattle'. Not unlike preignition pinging, but lower in the engine, and more metallic than that. Two of these incidents were when I was going through the Sierra Nevada mountains after the Reno Nationals, when I was on the west coast, as some of you may recall. Eventually, the engine developed a faint knock you could hear easily when cold, and whenever under acceleration, even after it warmed up.

So I was quite curious what I would find in the engine when I tore it apart. Other than a little bearing scoring hear and there (and a small crack in the block, but that's another thread), the only other thing I found out of place or out of tolerance was the No. 2 Rod Cap. It was ever so slightly 'chewed' up underneath one of the nuts. This nut was actually torqued to about 70#, rather than the recommended 55, which all of the others were. My guess is that this rod bolt was overtightened at one time, and lost it's ability to stretch. I do know that rod bolts are designed to stretch, like an axial spring, in order to keep the nuts tight. I'm planning on replacing all of the rod bolts and nuts, which are readily available, and spot facing the rod cap.

Has anyone experienced this particular problem. Do you think this was the 'rattle' and/or 'knock' I was hearing in the engine? Am I all wet?

This is my first Hudson engine experience, so I'm curious what you Hudson veterans might think about this.

As always, thank for the help and advice.

Hudsonly,

Doug

Unknown · December 2005

Back in 1952 I had a '48 super six with cracks in all the exhaust valve seats that ran into the cylinder bores. Some were as wide as 1/16". I don't know how it would run like that. It just smoked out the valve cover breather!!??

A friend of mine knew a guy that had a secret "cold welding" process.He repaired the block, ground the seats, and valves. I put it back together and it ran fine, except it still smoked out the breather. I noticed hand grind marks on the top of the block and in the bores where the cracks were.

hudsonguy · December 2005

Just a quick update on my '49 Super Six engine rebuild. As you may recall from earlier posts, I'd shelved the rebuild of my original 262 block because of a steadily growing crack between the #6 intake valve seat and the #6 bore. It seemed that my options were to 1) find a crack-free block and use it, or 2) repair crack/sleeve cylinder/install valve seat/cross fingers.

Since I knew where there was a nice un-molested (I think low mileage) '49 262 in a junkyard nearby, I opted to take a chance on that, and brought it home last Saturday. So far, so good, no apparent cracks or problems, minimal bore taper (about .004, on average). There was a nice surprise, in that the area that was cracked on my early 262 engine (VIN 49150631), had been relieved starting with car no. 49_90000 (or thereabouts). The engine I bought would have been one of the last '49s built, as it's no. 492156261. So not only is the valve relief I wanted to add already been started by the factory, it appears that the valve seats are 'taller', or at least a lot more distinctive. It looks like they really improved this area. The new engine casting no. is 320XXX. My original blocks casting no. is 300001.

Now I just have to get that last piston and three valves out of there, and it's off to the machine shop.

I'm pretty sure this donor car's speedo mileage of 60,000 is about right. The ridge in the engine is what I would guess it to be after that mileage. The transmission which I installed in my car works perfectly, and other signs point to a low mileage (for a Hudson) original engine. The only component that appears to be worn out is the camshaft. Even though the lobes look great, the oil pump gear is worn half away! My other cam which has twice the miles looks much better with just a little wear. Is it worth the money to have these cam gears repaired? I'm not sure if I've heard of that being done or not. I should talk to Randy Maas at 21st Century Hudson, I suppose. I know they sell cams, etc.

Hudsonly,

Doug

Will keep you posted.

dwardo99 · December 2005

Well, if you want to bore the cylinders, I think I have a set of .060 NOS pistons I would sell.

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