262 versus 308
If you needed to rebuild the engine in your stepdown and had both a 262 and a 308 (both '53's), which one would you rebuild? The only disadvantages I see to using the 308 is that it is not original to the car, and I have to run a 2 barrel carb since I can't use my twin H off of the 262. They will cost about the same to rebuild and I would get 46 more cubic inches. What are your opinions?
Rich
Rich
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Rich, what model stepdown? I like the original engine. The resale value is better maintained, since the next potential buyer may walk away from a non-original car which stands to be downgraded in a judged event. That could reduce your market for resale. It's differant IMO, if you have a nice car and no engine. Than use what is available or even a modern engine. Good luck.0
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I vote 308. Someone will trade manifolds/carbs so you can still have Twin-H. I dont think too many Hudson people are concerned about original motors.0
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If the car is a pre-51, I'd stay with the 262 engine.0
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I agree about originality not being too important to most Hudson folks. The important thing seem's more that it's a Hudson motor under the hood. I do understand the feeling of owning a correct restoration or original car. But I Have had a 47 Hudson with a 52 Hornet drivetrain in it. And it made an impressive vehicle when done right.
Roger0 -
Build it to drive, use the 308. Forget the judging thing, we do not judge out car at out National meet. Our club was founded that way, no judging. My 53 has many add on's and still gets the people choice award at many meets. Walt.0
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Rich - I ran a 262 Twin H on my 308 for a long time. It ran great. It may take 10 MPH off your top speed. I never tried it. Norm0
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The 308 is a "stressed" engine with an oversize bore which, if driven a lot or hard, will wear more rapidly comparatively, etc., etc.
The mechanics at the Hudson dealership where I worked when a kid said "the 262 was the best engine Hudson ever built".
It is getting increasingly difficult to find rebuildable 308 engines. When I was still messing around with Hornets in L. A. it was becoming very difficult to get quality pistons, irregardless of price - perhaps good quality light weight ones are being remanufactured?
If it came with a 262 & you have the original engine, why would you want to switch to a 308, esp. if stick shift? The marginal difference in performance would I think be a moot point.0 -
Do what you want, But the fact remains resale prices are based on stock cars, not modified. Any changes that you make, that can not easily be reversed, pulls a potential sales market away, not to mention any one would wonder why the engine was replaced. In addition, Hudson folks may not care if you swap engines in a model that did not originaly offer it. But the next guy might. Newcomers to the Hudson fold might not even know what a 308 is, vs a 262 ( an excellant engine), but, if it is a HORNET.The name hornet sells. I sense that you have a Super Wasp. It's your money and enjoy it, just please understand that there are other considerations that you may not have realized.. Go to NADA, see the $ differance between a wasp and hornet.0
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If the car is in a reasonable good original condition, I would also keep the stock engine. It's just nice to know that after so many years, everything is still like when the car was built;) Anyhow, this kind of car does not need to compete anymore, they are still there, that's enough0
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Its your car and your engines, so do what you want. I like to keep mine as close to orginal as I can. Thats just me. I will tell you that the block was designed for 262 CI and as everyone else increased their HP Hudson didnt have the money to make any major changes, so they just rebored etc the 262 block. This was told to me many years ago by a person that worked in the Hudson factory. The 262 is a lot quieter and more durable than the 308. This is from personal experience. Now that I too am a senior citizen and dont race them anymore, the difference in HP doent mean anything to me. You cant go wrong with either engine.0
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Hi
I was in our position last year, had a 262 and a 308 were both needed a rebuild.
I ended up with the 308 bored 60 over, a hotter camshaft and some more…
No regrets, since I have 4:55 in the rear and stayed with the stick shift, I can give most of the guys a good match at the red lights…
The only down is the mpg…
The car is a C6-1950
/ Andreas0 -
Hi
Yes I do have the 3 speed stick and electrical OD in place so cursing speed around 100km/h (62mph) is very comfortable.
Kenneth: Jag visste inte att du kunde Svenska, jag trodde du var från Holland?
I did not know you that you was avare of Swedish, for some reason I thought you was from the Netherlands?
/ Andreas0 -
I would answer the question by how you intend to use the car. Are you going to do city driving? Are you going to drive it often? If you rarely get the chance to open it up above 62 mph then you don't need the Hornet 308. I would rebuild the 262 and properly store the 308 to sell with the car to a buyer if you ever choose to sell it. If you are going to be on an open highway often though you would probably like having the extra power of the 308.0
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Someone touched on this subject earlier, but keep in mind what size engine the rest of your driveline was designed for. For instance, the clutch size, or the transmission input shaft may be too small for the increased torque from the 308.0
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48 up all long wheel base cars had 10 inch clutches including wasp. All pilot shafts are the same size from 1934 to 1954, 6 splines all models. Put the 308 into your car and enjoy the highway travels. Walt.0
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The 308 is not a 262 bored out, It's a completely new block. Larger cylinder walls that can be bore out to 100 thousand over, and I once bored one to 125 thousand, and ran in a race car. Only problem, they heat up quicker. Block is reinforced at the bottom end and if you never run out of oil you can not hurt it. My 308 is bored .060 over and driven 139,000 miles since rebuild and has never been touched, and I drive it 100 per and make all Nationals. Never had a heating or vapor lock problems driving in temp to 113 degrees. Oklahoma was the test. Walt.0
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Thanks for the feedback guys. It seems to be about 50:50 as to which to use. It will be going into my super wasp sedan with hydromatic transmission, nothing too special. The tired 262 I have now moves along pretty good, but seemed slow off the line. Is this because of the type of transmission? It would cruise along pretty good at 75 mph on the highway (with a little bit of a smoke screen though). I think I am leaning towards rebuilding the 262 now. A little off topic though, I heard a while back that at highway speed the torque converter will slip. Is there any negative affect to the transission from this and and what speed does this tyically occur?
Thanks,
Rich0 -
Who told you that crap. The faster you go the more it locks up. Walt.0
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I've never been one to consider resale in regards to what I do with my cars. They are
done to suit me(and maybe me only)but, I will say I probably would have never bought my first stepdown (49 C8)if if it hadn't been for the Twin-H 308 that was under the hood. I knew little of Hudson models,history,etc,but I did know the mystique of the Twin-H 308. Prior to owning one I considered(like 99% of the people I meet when I'm driving it)all stepdowns to be 'Hornets'.Lol My advice; enjoy it as you see fit.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone has commented on my 57 Chevy sedan delivery and called it either a Nomad or a Hurst... Aaargh0 -
Walt,
There were a couple of posts in the last couple weeks that discussed torque converter slip. After looking back at them, it looks like I misread them. It makes sense that it would grab tighter as rpms increase.
Rich0 -
What starts to slip is the clutches and bands. Worn or out of adjustments. Why do you think they sell lock up convertors for drag racing, because you can rev the engine and you are ready to go. Slipping is worn clutches or worn bands. Walt.0
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If one has the choice, I'd still rather go with stick & o.d.
It's approx. 100 lbs. lighter and it's something most of can, and or have, R & Red.
You can get, if needed, an entire newly & professionally rebuilt clutch assy. from one of our proteges in here, "The Clutch Guy", Mr. Wildrick, and do the job yourself. On the other hand I've never met anyone in the HET Club who rebuilt their own Hydramatics.
How easy & or expensive is it to acquire the requisite bands & clutches? Where do you get them? How many of us live in places where there is an auto. trans. rebuilder who will do an old antiquated Hydro? I can't answer any of these questions but I would think it would be worth contemplating if one has the option of going with a stick o.d. vs a Hydro.0 -
Gus Suza in Chicago is the Hudson Hydromatic guy.I have not paid mush attention lately to the cost . But it seem like he gets about $900.00 for a rebuilt unit
Roger0 -
Gus Souza's Hydro trans ad states in the WTN as $1350 for a rebuilt with exchange. Dont know the core price or if he would sell one outright at all.0
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and how about shipping?
you'd have to build a substantial crate as they have to weigh at least 2-300 lbs., and both to & from Chicago where Gus is. Cost????
I've "muscled" stick & o.d. trannies off the back of engines, onto jacks & lifted them on & off said jacks but don't think I'd try that alone with a Hydromatic!0 -
Someone with a good reputation and alot of experience rebuilding the hydros will, for some, outweigh the cost of shipping. Especially if no local shop has the experience.
A posible alternitive may be to buy an adaptor and mount a newer trans with overdrive and lock up converter behind the 262 or 308. But that would not be original to the car.
Have a great day
Lee O'Dell0 -
then you have to cut the driveshaft, get it balanced somewhere, change or alter rear motor mounts, maybe even frame, on & on.
Leave it alone - there was nothing wrong with the original engineering!0 -
oldhudsons wrote:then you have to cut the driveshaft, get it balanced somewhere, change or alter rear motor mounts, maybe even frame, on & on.
Leave it alone - there was nothing wrong with the original engineering!
Yes, so true oldhudsons !! I think the term is "re-inventing the wheel" All the linkage, the starter, the flywheel , the clutch and clutch release, sometimes the floor pan,and the question is to gain what ?. I think in the near future ,I will be finishing a much hotter than stock 308, and plan to bolt a single lever trans to it. I will do a little "fun" R & D . R & D = Run hard & Do burn-outs. We'll just see what gives. I know of a few weekends in spring, here in Indiana, I've personally watched Larry Kennedy do numerous burn-outs with his '51 S6 cpe,with a strong 308. He put that together for the first annual Beach Bend reunion,in Bowling Green, Ky. That has been several years ago, and it still looked like it does a great burn-out I witnessed last year-same parts, just serviced the clutch a few times.?0 -
Just one problem with the talk about 'torque converters' in the early Hydra-matic transmissions, they don't have one! What they used was a fluid coupling like the old Chrysler 'Fluid-Drive transmissions up till 52 or 3. That's why the Hydro is a 4 speed trans with a low 1st gear, so they'll take off quickly!0
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Hudsons in 1951 started with GM Hydra-matics and they had the same converter from 1951 to 1956. They started with the single range, 1951 to first series 1952, then went to the Dual Range till 1956. Walt.0
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