Help/Recommendation-Gas Tank Cap

[Deleted User]
edited November -1 in HUDSON
Received my 52 Hudson coupe last weekend...Car was restored beautifully, however experiencing following gas related problem. Car has crated 350 rebuilt engine & 700R4 transmission, both tested and running fine, I kept, cleaned original Hudson gas tank, but changed gas cap. On level street driving or normal gas pedal application under 50 MPH my car performs great; my problem is only when driving on upgrade or heavy exhilaration over 60-70 MPH my car is starving for gas and wants to stall, brand new fuel pump, carb. and gas lines, rubber venting hose to gas tank (every nut & bolt on car is new). Ruled out vapor lock (its 45 degrees in Las Vegas). Could it be a venting/vacuum problem whereby fuel is having difficulties pulling gas from tank under stress because not enough pressure in gas tank forcing fuel down? Tomorrow a.) going to test fuel from tank with pressure gauge, b.) without gas fuel cap c.) if that doesn’t help, may install electric fuel pump: I’d appreciated anyone who may have experienced same as my problem, if so and gas cap was problem, please advise brand or part number?
Thanks, Ray

Comments

  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    edited December 2011
    Ray

    Few Possibiities....
    Sometimesa a hose may look good but may be sucking shut upon seveve demand..Feel for softness
    Even though tank has a vent hose check if the Cap is vented
    Perhaps something in tank is sucking 'up against' the pickup tube
    Fuel Punp may be weak - Check Pressure & Volume


    If do mount an electric Pump, install close as possible to Tank
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    edited December 2011
    Ray,

    What's your intake system and approx horsepower rating?

    Have you taken a fuel pressure reading?

    Dan
  • Thanks Ol Racer,

    Allen is coming to Vegas tomorrow and will check with his gauge?
    Will let you know results?

    Ray
  • Hi Dan,

    Trust you and Rambo are well...

    I just sent Allen an email and asked about your first sentence.

    Also will take pressure reading tomorrow morning.

    Dan, is your web-site back on line? I remember a long time ago you posted information about gas door springs, presently I have a couple and look too big, tried upside down, still no luck, didn't you make a pair, if so, can you email me instructions?

    Thanks,

    Ray
  • Few Possibiities....
    Sometimesa a hose may look good but may be sucking shut upon seveve demand..Feel for softness About 10" of rubber hose total in
    system with a fram inline fuel filter right at tank. [Possible, but don’t think so.}
    Even though tank has a vent hose check if the Cap is vented Cap vented? {I think so. But not for original tank. Just found one that would fit. This might be the problem}
    Perhaps something in tank is sucking 'up against' the pickup tube {Tank was completey cleaned and uses stock pickup. I don’t think
    anything got into tank.}
    Fuel Punp may be weak - Check Pressure & Volume {2 brand new Holley pumps. Both do same thing. Possible I guess?? Will have to
    check pressure.}

    {Above is incoming from Allen, who lives 80 miles north of me}
  • {Edelbrock pertormer intake with a Holley 600 cfm carb. approx HP 280
    Has a macanical Holley fuel pump.}

    {Have not tested yet}
  • Ray, There is no way I would know the condition of the fuel tank, but I can offer this comment. You stated the engine starves for fuel when pressed beyond 60MPH and when climbing. I would offer that the pickup tube in the tank is either cracked and possibly moving or the tube is too short. With a full tank the pick up tube should be just off the bottom of the tank and the conditions you stated should not occure if the pump is operating properly, tank is clean, delivery line is clear and intact. You can quickly determine the status of the pickup tube by placing the car on a lift and removing the two screws that hold it into the Hudson tank.

    Good Luck... would have called but failed in my attempts to recover your cell # from my contacts list.

    Ken C
  • RonS
    RonS Senior Contributor
    edited December 2011
    Ray, Hudson 51-53s used the same caps as Ford, Lincoln and Mercury of 41-48. Check em out on ebay. I recommend they be vented and the vent hole is clear. The best IMO, is the Stant G-25. It is stainless and highly polished and well vented. But not that it matters much, the originals were Stant G-35 a dull cadmium that have wide ears. These are used on cars with gas filler doors and are cheaper to manufacture than the stainless type. I never new those gas tanks were vented at all except for the cap vent. Where would the vent be located on the tank? Ken is right, after you check the cap for venting, make sure the pickup tube is not sucking air. Your pressure and suction test should show this as well.
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    Ray wrote:
    Hi Dan,

    Trust you and Rambo are well...

    I just sent Allen an email and asked about your first sentence.

    Also will take pressure reading tomorrow morning.

    Dan, is your web-site back on line? I remember a long time ago you posted information about gas door springs, presently I have a couple and look too big, tried upside down, still no luck, didn't you make a pair, if so, can you email me instructions?

    Thanks,

    Ray

    No - Register.com has been holding the url hostage..they want too much money, so I'll probably have to get another one going here soon.

    Making the springs is not all that simple..I'd only do it if there wasnt a source..but I'm sure I remember someone on the forum that was reproducing the ones for the stepdowns..cheaper than it would take to buy the wire, make the tools etc.
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    edited December 2011
    Ray fuel problems are always tough - most of the time its the last thing I check that ends up being the problem!

    If your fuel pressure at the carb is good under load - Another cause of the symptom you mention would be an incorrect/sticking float level even with new carb, with all the construction/fitting time parts sit..etc.. its easy to get something up in the bowl that could cause a float to stick..as well as incorrect factory setting/parts (wouldnt be the first time)

    If that all checks out..got another carb to try? Thats always a good alternative.

    That 600's a small 4 barrel right? Vacuum secondaries I'd assume..not mechanical?

    I always replace the springs in the vacuum actuator so the secondaries open faster...gas mileage, smashmileage..go have fun I say :)
  • Check the push rod for the fuel pump, or the cam lobe. This was always a problem for Chevy engines. Works good at low speed but starves at high speed. Walt.
  • I am thankful to all who offered benefit of their past personal experience with recommendations related to my gas problem.
    Wanted to identify starving gas problem by process of illumination doing the following. When Allen arrived today; using proper gauge, tested second new fuel pump which is putting out 7 pounds of pressure, went through new 600's small 4 barrel carburetor with vacuum secondary confident both fuel pump and carburetor are in 100% working order. Because of very slight crimp in rubber hose from fuel pump to carburetor decided to replace with new little longer rubber hose. From line into fuel pump blew through and could hear air/gas bubbles in tank; that illuminated blocked lines, road tested the car and still no improvement? Then took Ken Cates recommendation removing two screws to check pick up tube which Allen had sand blasted months ago and looked to be in great condition; not knowing which way “L” shape curved pick up tube is correct, re-installed upside down or where “L” was parallel to bottom of gas tank, then tried to blow through line but didn’t hear any air/gas bubbles. Added three gallons of gas then removed tube and installed same way it was to begin with being the “L” facing to bottom of tank. Even though we blew through confirming no blockage in line where we had filter from gas tank to front, decided to remove filter only using rubber hose to new line going to fuel pump. All of above mentioned didn’t help, what could have happened throughout the years of moving parts, when I removed tube it could be bent and we don’t have anyway in knowing? From another 51 Hornet parts car I purchased, Allen thinks he may have pick up tube and will let me know tomorrow, therefore can’t do anything until next week; definitely feel gas problem is related to gas tank pick up tube? Sorry for long story, but wanted to do my best with blow by blow explanation.
    Merry Christmas to you all,
    Ray
  • RonS
    RonS Senior Contributor
    Ray, I just pulled my pickup tube on my 53 last year. I don't remember the tube bent anywhere. It was straight down from the bracket and gasket. Did you do a suction test on the inlet side of the fuel pump? Also some one correct me, but didn't Hudson fuel tanks have a strainer "sock" in the tank where the pickup tube bottom rests? This was supposed to be a filter to avoid larger particles from getting to the fuel pump, but over the years would clog, especially if the tank was sealed. Enough fuel might get by to perform well at moderate use, but starve under larger demand.
  • It was not a sock it was a cone shaped screen the tube went into that was soldered to bottom of tank. Very fine messh
  • RonS wrote:
    Ray, I just pulled my pickup tube on my 53 last year. I don't remember the tube bent anywhere. It was straight down from the bracket and gasket. Did you do a suction test on the inlet side of the fuel pump? Also some one correct me, but didn't Hudson fuel tanks have a strainer "sock" in the tank where the pickup tube bottom rests? This was supposed to be a filter to avoid larger particles from getting to the fuel pump, but over the years would clog, especially if the tank was sealed. Enough fuel might get by to perform well at moderate use, but starve under larger demand.

    The OEM pickup tube for a Hudson fuel tank has a slight bend in the tube. The installation point for the pickup tube is on a curved surface of the fuel tank. The pickup tube was bent to assure it would point down into the tank and reach nearly to the bottom surface. My Hudson fuel tank experience extends to working on less than a dozen tanks. I have yet to take apart a tank where the fuel pick-up tube was equipped with a "filter or sock". All of the tanks I have worked on were thoroughly inspected after disassembly and the only internal debris found has been dirt, rust scale and varnish.
  • super651
    super651 Senior Contributor
    Ray, I sent you an email, I have a cap for you. Pal Rudy
  • RonS
    RonS Senior Contributor
    Ken, I meant a mesh/screen attached to the tank as TallentR stated . I was advised years ago that restorers would cut open a hole at the correct location and remove the cone, then reweld the tank. This was due to clogging the screen when gas tank sealer was poured in and sloshed about. Does any one have a good tank for sale?
  • TwinH
    TwinH Senior Contributor
    The tank in my 49 had been through the Renu process by the PO and I will say it may outlast the car now. I just found out there is a Renu franchise in Orlando run by a Hudson owner. Does Joe Stinnett ring a bell with anyone?
  • rambos_ride
    rambos_ride Senior Contributor
    edited December 2011
    which is putting out 7 pounds of pressure, went through new 600's small 4 barrel carburetor with vacuum secondary confident both fuel pump and carburetor are in 100% working order

    If you're sure the float levels are proper, did you happen to run the fuel pressue qauge while driving?

    it's a PIA and you have to be careful, but you can get a t-fitting and enough hose to monitor the pressure from the cabin if needed.

    The thing I'd want to check is what the fuel pressure reads under a load and when it exhibits the behavior of fuel starvation.

    Have you checked vacuum readings? If so what are they and is it fairly steady?

    Oh yeah - whilst attempting to start the engine at any time..did you anyone get a carb backfire with the usual accompanying flames? If so the power valve could be toast.
  • To all,

    I am happy to report, after receiving pick up tube from Lance; Allen installed and tested returned my 52 Hornet coupe today, see his self explanatory email to me sent several days ago.


    "Fantastic news it is fixed and working with no problems now. Turns out it was the pick up tube. It was the same bend but was twisted.
    Put the new old one in and ran some test worked good. Took it out for a drive and no problems or stalling.

    I started with emptying the gas. There was roughly 10 gallons of gas in the tank. Then looked at the tube. After getting it back together
    i tested the fuel pressure just to make sure again. And it runs with 7.62 PSI."

    I was so pleased with performance of driving my car all day, as you all have expereinced Hudson's get a great deal of attention and compliments; mostly seniors would come to car, had stories to tell of their Houdson past ownership and even request picture taking whereever I parked, obviously I was proud and happy.

    Ray
  • [Deleted User]
    edited January 2012
    Ray wrote:
    To all,

    I am happy to report, after receiving pick up tube from Lance; Allen installed and tested returned my 52 Hornet coupe today, see his self explanatory email to me sent several days ago.


    "Fantastic news it is fixed and working with no problems now. Turns out it was the pick up tube. It was the same bend but was twisted.
    Put the new old one in and ran some test worked good. Took it out for a drive and no problems or stalling.

    I started with emptying the gas. There was roughly 10 gallons of gas in the tank. Then looked at the tube. After getting it back together
    i tested the fuel pressure just to make sure again. And it runs with 7.62 PSI."

    I was so pleased with performance of driving my car all day, as you all have expereinced Hudson's get a great deal of attention and compliments; mostly seniors would come to car, had stories to tell of their Houdson past ownership and even request picture taking whereever I parked, obviously I was proud and happy.

    Ray

    Ray

    GREAT NEWS!

    A long trip to the finish and I am very happy that you are now able to enjoy the fruits of all your time and monies. Great to know that you and Allen corrected what needed to be done. Enjoy your car and turn those heads in LV.

    Ken
  • essexcoupe3131
    essexcoupe3131 Senior Contributor
    cool to hear all is fine now,
    enjoy your ride and happy motoring

    Mike
  • Another Hudson crosses the 'finish' line. Congrats Ray! Happy Hudsoning.
  • Thanks to all well wisher's. Today I just had fun driving my car around town again up and down expressways, car is a delight to drive even at 80 MPH just rolls straight highway. I am going to attempt to reconstruct build story from start to finish, Allen did a magnificient job and if interested check out following link to see some pictures of Allen's personal Jimmy project while building my car and some others: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=465388 Also first Hudson pictures directly after purcahsing from fellow member (Mike) from me taken of car apart before I met Allen; if I didn't meet him I don't think car would have ever been built?

    Ray
  • Ray

    Only thing missing here is a picture of your smiling from the driver seat of your NEW HORNET!

    Ken
  • Thanks & Good Morning Ken,
    Yes, you’re so right, at age 74 I am so proud, happy and smiling from ear to ear. Throughout the years, you and other members have offered so much useful advice, words of wisdom and experience has helped me, I believe so many others who fulfilled completion of hobby dreams feel teh same way too!!! Young Allen has been a breathe of spring or like receiving a letter from home. I have attempted and completed many different car restorations to include some other Hudson’s from yesteryears, but never under took upside down, bumper to bumper, top to bottom full blown build which I learnt/was informed isn’t for the faint of heart. Each time I finished a car, I’d say never again, I have many useful Hudson parts left over from over coupe’s and sedan I purchased for my required completion of this coupe that when I get around to indexing I’ll post giving opportunity to other members to see if they can use? I also have a complete running rebuilt Chevy 350 engine with only 900 miles on it, I bought for $1,900.- thought I would use in another project. Lastly I have still have excellent complete solid desert California dry, (your sound advice of years ago) limited surface rust, rolling 1956 Hudson Hornet Twin-H (engine turns). During ’52 coupe built, I said never again and I think Allen never wants to work on a Hudson again, although I was reconsidering restoring this nice sedan; without Allen I don’t think I’ll attempt it and will offer on eBay at a later date. As you and other members had plenty of cars you all restored, I did too and have included some pictures of my hobby passion of which has brought me years of pleasure. As I mentioned in near future I intend to collect and reconstruct my thoughts about ’52 coupe with ’53 hood ornament, mainly because my first Hudson I owned while being stationed in 1957 at Fort Knox, Kentucky was a ’53 Hornet sedan. From what I read on FORUM, if all the members talking about parts restorations go forward, just maybe Hudson builds will be appreciated for years to come. Ironic, I was having lunch with a friend returning to Manila today at restaurant yesterday and seen a senior citizen gentleman in parking lot walking and looking around my car, as I walked closer to him, I said I know you to senior and haven’t seen or heard about him for twenty plus years, I had to refresh his memory that we meet in Korea US Military Installation being located in 8hth Army Command, Yongsan, Seoul Korea ironic he informed me at two different times of owning two 1952 Hudson coupe’s and complimented me saying my car looks like one the top Hornet’s he’s even seen, even better that 49 Commodore displayed at Harrah’s Hotel. That’s enough for today. Sorry to bore you with some pictures...To all take care, stay healthy and happy Hudsoning.
    Ray
  • giving opportunity to other members to see if they can use? I also have a complete running rebuilt Chevy 350 engine with only 900 miles on it, I bought for
    Ray wrote:
    Thanks & Good Morning Ken,
    Yes, you’re so right, at age 74 I am so proud, happy and smiling from ear to ear. Throughout the years, you and other members have offered so much useful advice, words of wisdom and experience has helped me, I believe so many others who fulfilled completion of hobby dreams feel teh same way too!!! Young Allen has been a breathe of spring or like receiving a letter from home. I have attempted and completed many different car restorations to include some other Hudson’s from yesteryears, but never under took upside down, bumper to bumper, top to bottom full blown build which I learnt/was informed isn’t for the faint of heart. Each time I finished a car, I’d say never again, I have many useful Hudson parts left over from over coupe’s and sedan I purchased for my required completion of this coupe that when I get around to indexing I’ll post $1,900.- thought I would use in another project. Lastly I have still have excellent complete solid desert California dry, (your sound advice of years ago) limited surface rust, rolling 1956 Hudson Hornet Twin-H (engine turns). During ’52 coupe built, I said never again and I think Allen never wants to work on a Hudson again, although I was reconsidering restoring this nice sedan; without Allen I don’t think I’ll attempt it and will offer on eBay at a later date. As you and other members had plenty of cars you all restored, I did too and have included some pictures of my hobby passion of which has brought me years of pleasure. As I mentioned in near future I intend to collect and reconstruct my thoughts about ’52 coupe with ’53 hood ornament, mainly because my first Hudson I owned while being stationed in 1957 at Fort Knox, Kentucky was a ’53 Hornet sedan. From what I read on FORUM, if all the members talking about parts restorations go forward, just maybe Hudson builds will be appreciated for years to come. Ironic, I was having lunch with a friend returning to Manila today at restaurant yesterday and seen a senior citizen gentleman in parking lot walking and looking around my car, as I walked closer to him, I said I know you to senior and haven’t seen or heard about him for twenty plus years, I had to refresh his memory that we meet in Korea US Military Installation being located in 8hth Army Command, Yongsan, Seoul Korea ironic he informed me at two different times of owning two 1952 Hudson coupe’s and complimented me saying my car looks like one the top Hornet’s he’s even seen, even better that 49 Commodore displayed at Harrah’s Hotel. That’s enough for today. Sorry to bore you with some pictures...To all take care, stay healthy and happy Hudsoning.
    Ray

    Good Morning Mike,

    As per Mike's request who I purchased '52 coupe from, I certainly will post gentleman's "Summit 3 Hydro Wood Grain Transfer" company name again, however I am not sure if he's still using email address or even in business? Later today I'll check my files for receipt for additional details. Checck out old picture I found of your car on the way to Washington State.

    Thanks,

    Ray
    Original Message
    From: Mike Mittge
    To: Raymond J. Kadagian
    Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 9:37 AM
    Subject: Re: The fence test


    Hi Ray,

    It’s no wonder folks want to look at the left side of your car- its Gorgeous! The wood graining, and the great chrome, is a show-stopper.

    Can you put this pic on the Hudson board, and get in a plug for the wood graining guy? I know you’ve given his name in the past, but I think its worth another shout.

    Mike
This discussion has been closed.