27 Boat Tail

SuperDave
SuperDave Senior Contributor
edited November -1 in HUDSON
Somehow I managed to post this in the general discussion section. Thanks to bent Metal for bringing this to my attention.
At an AACA Meet recently, I was approached by a gentleman that said he has a 27 boat tail body and fenders.He had two very poor computer scanned pictures that showed a solid Cowl section along with the doors and latches. He says there is no rust and has had it in dry storage for about 40 years. I am intriged by the thought of building one.. I realize I would need a 27 chassis to start with. Preferably a complete car.. What would I have to pay for a car that might have a rusty body? I wouldn't want to destroy one good car to build another. Nor do i want to start a project I would not be able to complete ..My background in Hudsons is all post war..:unsure:

Comments

  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    According to your post, I'm not following what constitutes what he has is a boat-tail. If he has doors, cowl, and latches, that doesn't necessarily add up to a boat-tail, does it? Is the back end of the car there . . . or partially there? What about a frame?

    If you are looking for what kind of a price on a parts car, are you referring to another boat-tail body?
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    I think that SuperDave is assuming that a boattail and other '27s use the same chassis or parts thereof. Do they? If so, the question could be "what would THAT chassis be worth?" Interesting project. If I only had the time, bucks and facilities...
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    Sorry I wasn't as clear as I should have been. The Boat tail is there as well as the cowl,fenders, doors and hardware. No Hood, running gear or chassis. He says "No rust"..So whoever does the resurection..will need a CAR TO START WITH...So what does a Essex running gear go for? :whistle:
  • bent metal
    bent metal Senior Contributor
    To guess at an answer to your question, I'd say for what you want. Maybe a grand or two. Of course you'd pay more for a nicer car. But that's not what you said you wanted. This is my guess for a fairly complete car that needs total restoration of everything. Probably doesn't run well but does run.

    I'd like to see pictures of the boat tail. The way you worded the discription of the photos made me think the cowl with doors is not connected to the tail? Is that right? If so, that's not good. That would indicate some major wood work. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions. :)

    No matter what the condition is, I'd love to have that for a "some day" project.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Hi Dave---This has to be an Essex boat-tail since 1931 was the only year that Hudson built one.---Cliff Minard
  • StillOutThere
    StillOutThere Expert Adviser
    Hmmmm, probably not the same boattail that I know about because no fenders were mentioned and definitely no doors. This one is also without a chassis. Does have cowl and windshield. I've been trying to get this guy to sell for a while.

    This was sitting on end so I've turned the picture to make it more recognizable.

  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Well, Dave, I had a post I attached to this thread in response to your clarification, but somehow, it didn't make it. That's too bad, as I thought it to be a pretty good one!

    Anyway, thanks for the more detailed info. I assumed that's what you meant. As far as the 27's go, I'm not much of an expert, but have had some exposure to the boat-tails in particular, as I know where a couple are hiding out and have spent some time studying their construction. As far as the doors, cowl, windshield, latches, good and rest of front end, they are the same as other '27 open cars (like roadsters, phaetons, etc.), I believe. I also am pretty sure that the fenders, (front and rear) are interchangeable with at least the other open cars, and most likely the other body styles, as they at least appear to be the same from photos. That's a big plus.

    Tough part is the rear pan that goes under the boat-tail in the rear, which is model-specific, and usually rusted away. Fortunately, bentmetal has the jig for making these, if necessary.

    I agree with BM, you should be able to locate a useable candidate for 1-2K. More for something better, of course, which in the long run, is usually a much better prospect. It sounds bad, but finding a really decent 2DR sedan and having it give up it's existence to make a boat-tail is a no-brainer, IMO. Not all would agree, I'm sure. Have to do a little research on exactly which frames and wheelbases match the BT, but I'm sure BM or Alex would be particularly useful, there, amongst others.

    Lastly, I would contact Pete Booz and pick his brain. I know of no other expert on so many different pre-war models.

    Great project, for sure!! Keep us posted.
  • ESSX28-1
    ESSX28-1 Senior Contributor
    edited April 2012

    Be careful with the rear fenders. They look to be wider than those found on the Sedans - more like those from the Coupes. The two are not interchangeable!! From the front of the doors forward is much the same on all 27 body styles apart from the door hinge - suicide (rear hinged) on closed cars & front hinged on the open cars
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    Thanks for the bits of infoemation..It looks like they were fairly popular.I wonder how many were built? Alex ??:cheer:
  • hudsontech
    hudsontech Senior Contributor
    SuperDave wrote:
    Thanks for the bits of infoemation..It looks like they were fairly popular.I wonder how many were built? Alex ??:cheer:

    So far, we don't have any break-down figures for pre-1946 cars. I don't think very many of the Essex boat-tails were built. That said they seem to be showing up more and more lately.

    The expert on these '27 boat-tails is Tom Brintnall who has a running un-restored example. I'm surprised Tom hasn't jumped in here yet - I know he's been on the forum off and on.

    Hudsonly,
    Alex Burr
    Memphis, TN
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    StilloutThere-

    That's too cool!! Keep working on the guy.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Hi all, As for how many 27 EBT's were built, we have no actual production figures as Alex stated. I have 20 or so in the registry, and know of several more that are not in the HET Club for a total of just over 30 in existence. There are several in Australia & New Zealand. There numbers include first & second series production, Hudson liked to make mid-year production changes in the late teens & 20's, today it just adds to the mystery/confusion. The easy way to tell a 1927 1st series EBT from a 2nd series is that there will be a body line bead running down the side of the body about 4 inches below the top edge of the doors. This is easily seen if you look in Butlers Hudson book or an old Rambler Family Album. There were other changes mid year across all 27 essex, they stroked the engine 1/4", wheel dia went for 21" to 20", spare tire carrier & tail light location was different. On closed body cars the rear portion of the body went from flat to rounded and slightly longer for more interior room. These running changes occurred as of July production. 27 EBT starting serial # 534,811 to 610,276(1st series) and 610,277 to end of 1927 production run for 2nd series. Some have speculated that there were some Early 1928 EBT's made with left over bodies from 27, but there is no official 1928 EBT info on this. 1928 was the first year for 4 wheel brakes on any Essex.
    The picture of the tail section above is a 1st series body, but is has been modified. The rectangular hole in the top section is not correct, there was not any rumble/dickie seat on 27's. That area should have 6 zinc rub strips and 2 stands with rubber bumpers for the top to rest on when it is put down.
    The cowl and doors are the same for 27E open cars(with 1st/2nd series differences). Although I have never seen an actual 27E Speedster(touring car) in either series, only in factory photos and books. Cowl lights were 27E open car only(but the same as 27 Hudson Brougham).
    The rear fenders are 27 EBT only(both series), as they are fully closed on the inside to meet the lower body pan and stand alone.
    You would be correct that the Hood, rad/shell, front fenders and rolling chassis would all be the same as 27E closed cars. With the exceptions for 1st & 2nd series differences and the rear axle ratio. 27 EBT's had a 5.00 to 1 rear axle, all others had 5.60 to 1 ratio.
    I hope this helps clarify and not confuse. Any other questions I will try to answer.

    Tom Brintnall
  • bent metal
    bent metal Senior Contributor
    Well I think Mr. Brintnall said it all in regards to the boat tail diffrences. That all sounds right to me. I would also mention, as Tom knows, the windshield stancions are shorter on the boat tail than on the speedster. But maybe the same as roadster? So if this body does not come with the stancions, your not going to get that with the sedan doner car. The windshield either.

    I'm ready for the pictures of this project. :)
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    I now have a load of information to digest..and I thank you all.. It appears this is an early series as there is nothing below the top belt line. I wish I could post the pictures, but they are such poor quality, they would be worthless. There are two windshield stancions with a large round hole near the top..no doubt to hang a windshield from that would pivot. Looks like some wood is gone at the very bottom of the left rear body section.Some small rust holes in the lower passenger door. six zinc strips and two knobs to rest the top on..if it had one. Firewall is intact. doors have handles and interior latches.Rear fenders are there but pretty badly bent. Didn't look like they are rusty, so since they are heavy guage..can be worked.(wish bent metal was closer!) Good grief what a project...Nothing I can't do with all the advice here on the forum.. Now to find a donar car... any leads? If I can find a decent donar, I'll start negotiations with the owner of the BT.. Thanks again!!!:woohoo:
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Dave-

    There's literally a "boatload" of wood in those cars, as well. Pun intended.
  • essex6
    essex6 Expert Adviser
    If it helps any, I have the drivetrain from a 27 Boat Tail with front axle, brake rods, etc. that I bought about 12 years ago. I believe that I have the correct rear axle with the higher ratio. The engine was missing many parts, which I have since gathered over the years to complete.

    The car was already rodded and I picked up the left over parts. Have a hood available and some other tin, that I believe is for a 27. However, I do not have a frame.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    essex6 wrote:
    If it helps any, I have the drivetrain from a 27 Boat Tail with front axle, brake rods, etc. that I bought about 12 years ago. I believe that I have the correct rear axle with the higher ratio. The engine was missing many parts, which I have since gathered over the years to complete.

    The car was already rodded and I picked up the left over parts. Have a hood available and some other tin, that I believe is for a 27. However, I do not have a frame.

    Sounds like a great start, Dave.
  • ESSX28-1
    ESSX28-1 Senior Contributor
    If you can't find an original high ratio diff, then look for a regular Esssx 4 diff. change the spider gears from spines to square Essex & you've got an instant 12%. Pretty simple exercize to acheive.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    SUPERDAVE, where are you located ? I have a rolling chassis available. I live in Massachusetts. Also may be able to help with other parts. You can e-mail me & (HET-super6esx@hotmail.com), drop the (HET).

    Tom Brintnall
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    SuperDave-

    With Tom's help, it looks like you are almost set-up. In addition, if patterns are available, I'll make all your wood for the interior. You can swap me out step-down stuff later.

    Feel free to call-
    210-380-9709
  • 53jetman
    53jetman Senior Contributor
    Super Dave! Don't you love it when a plan comes together! Love this forum.

    Jerry
  • lostmind
    lostmind Expert Adviser
    it sounded to me like he was just day dreaming , now you guys got it half done !
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    Day dreaming? I was.. but now i am a bit more serious..Time to take action..
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    Tom i am all the way down in Florida. "bout halfway down the east coast between Jacksonville and Miami. Where in Mass are you? I mis-spent some of my youth at Otis AFB back in the day...
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    I live in Mansfield, Ma. My brother Dale is wintering in Cape Coral(west coast), he will be coming back north next month.

    Tom
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    Well..... I have to make a decision. Build a Boat tail or obtain a stepdown convertible...Hmm I think I'll get a convertible.. Didn't have to think too long!

    Since I have "opted out" so to speak... If anyone is interested in the body. Email me at HETdwad1939@att.net (drop the het) and I'll pass the contact information to you. I doubt the gentleman would want me to publicly publish his name and address. It's in the Pan handle of Florida.
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