Tech Session topics -- input invited

Park_W
Park_W Senior Contributor
edited June 2012 in HUDSON
I've been asked to do a tech session at Gettysburg on 12v conversions. Would like to hear from those considering and those having done it, on what aspects are or were worrying, puzzling, controversial, hard to do, etc.. At the session I'd like to focus on what you want and need to know and not spend time on things you already know.

Comments

  • MikeWA
    MikeWA Senior Contributor
    I've not done a conversion, but I seem to remember reading about something peculiar with the guages on stepdowns- they have some sort of voltage adjuster or something, not just straight 6 volt guages.

    Also, you need a resistor, bulb or diode to keep from bleeding juice back through the alternator- will the stepdown generator "idiot light" serve that function?
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    edited June 2012
    Mike, that resistor isn't to keep power from feeding back, rather it's an initial energizing voltage for the altermnator. Delco's manual for the 10-SI series alternators shows only the idiot light providing that function, but I found that with only that source, the alternator didn't do much at engine idle speed. I tried the 6v bulb, since it will carry a bit more power, but even then the slow speed charging was minimal. I ended up doing what the manual says may be needed in some cars ... a resistor path in parallel with the idiot light feed. I'm using and recommend a 10 watt, 10 ohm resistor to do that ... has worked well for eight years and over 30,000 miles!

    The voltage regulator in the '51 and later cars does present a little problem. NAPA used to have a 12v replacement, listed for the early 12v Ford cars, and it worked perfectly. But they don't carry that one any more. I've not found one that works well, though there's likely one out there. The alternative approach would be to keep the original instrument voltage regulator (IVR), but install the appropriate resistor to reduce the supply voltage to what it is with 6v.

    You'll hear folks say you don't have to do anything with the gauges, and that's true if you don'a care about the gauges reading accurately. Careful bench testing shows they'll read about 1/4 scale higher on 12v. And the IVR is under a bit of stress working with the increased current, so may fail prematurely.
  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    Re the power supply to the fuel and temp gauges, I believe it's a better option, while you have the dash apart, to install a modern electronic 12V to 5V reducer. I DIY'D one for myself a while ago and it wasn't too hard. http://www.classiccar.com/forum/discussion/120625/6volt-or12

    Why do I have the dash apart when I'm only swapping the alternator and starter do I hear someone say? Surely you're not going to leave all that dodgy 60 year old wiring behind the dashboard now that you have twice the voltage going through it and potentially 4 times as much power.
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    Park,
    To addtress your original question. I would suggest a basic course on the elctrical system .. basic DC.. How an ignition system works.. How motors work.. The definition of voltage.. current.. resistance. So many younger members have no understanding of the basics. Once they learn the basic building blocks, they can understand the modifications. I dare say that most Hudson (and other old car) owners have no clue how ohms law works.Hence .. all the questions....
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    Thanks for the input, Dave. I'll need to stay pretty much on 12v conversion, but it's pretty easy to work in some basics along the way.
  • nick s
    nick s Senior Contributor
    Park, I think you must cover why to do a conversion, and be clear that it is not to mask the deficiencies of 60 or more years of corrosion. The original systems when maintained are adequate when used for their intended puposes. Too many make the conversion unsafely leaving the old wire in place. to me 6 volts, points and vaccum wipers are part of the experience.
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    Nick, you're absolutely right. The first thing on the agenda is "Why do it?" I certainly agree that there should be a good reason to do it, and that doesn't mean "So it'll start easier." There are some valid reasons for changing over, but that's not one of them. As for wiring, the key thing is the condition of the insulation. If that's OK, then the original wiring is fine ... after a proper conversion, most circuits are carrying less current than they did on 6v, so the 6v wiring is actually less stressed. And obviously, the condition of connections should be checked regardless.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Park-

    Wish I could be there, but won't be able to make it. Nick's idea is a must, I think and concur. Ditto on the "basic DC" system. In OKC, Lew Bird did a tech session on this very aspect and it was a plus for many folks.

    Additionally, I think it would be good to go over whether or not to go with a one-wire or two-wire alternator and pros and cons of both. Maybe you could print out your list that shows "bill of materials" and hand them out. I used your list almost exclusively when I did my conversion and it was most helpful.

    And, just off the top of my head, how about filming the session, putting it on YouTube, and including a link in the on-line Library for future reference. I know we would put a link on our Chapter website, no problem.
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Every tech session should be recorded. A great way to "spread"the knowledge!


  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    RL, I do plan to have handouts of the updated Tech Notes on conversion. Not sure I'd want to be on YouTube though!
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    Ken, tell me more about the need for a diode. I haven't encountered any problem like that on my '51.
  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    But but but.... The insulation on 60 year old Hudson wiring can NEVER be in good condition. The insulation may look OK but the rubber has dried out and is very fragile, ditto the cotton covering. Any movement of the wires, eg from putting a hand up behind the dash to change a bulb will readily cause pieces of insulation to flake off, leaving exposed wiring. These comments apply equally to original 6V cars as well as 12V conversions, updating the wiring is a matter of common sense safety. The original wiring can be left in place, you may well get away with it forever, but be aware you are playing dice with Mr Murphy.
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    edited June 2012
    No argument, Bob ... if the insulation's not in good shape, the wiring should be replaced. My point was that the gauge of the 6v wiring is not an issue. It's more than adequate for 12v.

    Ken, after some thought I understand your point about feedback from the alternator at shutdown. But it doesn't seem to be an issue with most Hudsons. My '51 does have the ACC terminal and so does my '47, which means the practice probably goes back at least to '41. So the important thing is to be sure folks know to avoid connecting anything but the coil circuit to that dedicated terminal on the switch. (BTW, I'm using a standard 10-SI, not a one-wire).
  • EssexAdv
    EssexAdv Expert Adviser, Member
    Park, how about the problem of automatic starters not liking the 12 volt; either convert the starter to work on 12 volt or fix the bushing to eliminate the nose braking
    Lew M
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    My local starter guy rewinds the starters to work on 9 volts. His own fix for them breaking when converting to 12 volt. The starter still zings real good but does not slam out so hard it destroys itself ,
    Roger
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    edited June 2012
    This will be discussed, for sure. The history of problems indicates the starters on automatic tranny cars definitely have to be converted if one wants to avoid the nose-casting breakage problem. I don't understand logic of the 9v approach ... my manual tranny Hornet starter was converted to 12v and it still spins the engine smartly.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    I'm not sure either why some folks have issues and others dont. I know we had an old tracktor converted to 12 volts and left the starter at 6 volt. It spun like crazy. And was in use at least 20 years. And I had a 308 in a Hudson pick up with a 6 volt starter on 12 volts . I had it for about 3 years I suppose and it never tore itself up . Yet I do hear all the stories and remember a fellow walking around the swap area in Rockford a couple years a go. He had the pieces of the stater in his hand - it had fell off while starting.
    Maybe its a timing issue or engines that get tight and hard to start when hot, I dont know .
    Might be something like GM had in the 60's-70's where you had to put shims in on some starters for proper clearance ?
    Roger
  • GrimGreaser
    GrimGreaser Senior Contributor
    Well, as to the starter issue... The starter shop I got help from was surprised I had so much trouble, they hadn't heard of the starters busting the nose off. I will say, all three times mine broke it was during extended fits of "Start you @$#?@$?? piece of @$#!" when I, despite my calm, stress free demeanor ~X( , didn't let the starter stop spinning from the previous attempt. WANG!
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    edited June 2012
    Well, aside from any other factors, when you quadruple the wattage delivered to a high-torque electric motor, It does what it does with a wham!
  • coverton
    coverton Expert Adviser
    Park, As usual i always enjoy these issues,comments and "fixes" My experience is an issue with fabricating a bracket to support the 10-SI and a replacement pulley wheel. Maybe a mention to where to get these would help.As to the schematic, i use yours but methodically replaced each wire except those in the inerior courtesey lamps and made up a new fuse panel installed on the inside fire wall. No its not original but at least one can find a nice 12v battery. Your old 51 is still running fine !
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    edited June 2012
    Here's the bracket I made up before adding the A/C to the Hornet. It's just a length of 1 1/2" square tubing that bolts to the block where the original generator bracket was. That gives you the "real estate" to mount either the original gen bracket, as shown, or a nice alternator bracket from one of the parts houses or street rod parts suppliers. For the adjusting bracket I just walked the line at a junkyard 'til I saw something the looked like it would work. I think this one came off a Toyota or similar "rice burner."
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    GrimGreaser commented -"Well, as to the starter issue... The starter shop I got help from was surprised I had so much trouble, they hadn't heard of the starters busting the nose off. I will say, all three times mine broke it was during extended fits of "Start you @$#?@$?? piece of @$#!" when I, despite my calm, stress free demeanor , didn't let the starter stop spinning from the previous attempt. WANG! "
    This tends to give credit to the folks who (myself amung them) say if 6volts wont start it something is wrong.
    I drove a 48 Commodore as basicly my second car for several years. So it was used year round just not in nasty weather but definitely in the cold. The motor turned over so slow you would swear - no way is this thin gonna go. And about the 3rd time over it would fire and of it would go.
    So if a hard starting motor is coverted to 12 volts - its still a hard starting motor .
    Roger
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    edited June 2012
    Roger, we're on the same page I think. "So it'll start better" is not a legitimate reason for going 12v. That's what I call "compensating for the problem instead of fixing it."

    Greaser, are you aware of the "latching" type Bendix drives? The pinion stays engaged with the flywheel until the engine really starts, which avoids quite a few "slam bang" engagements. They're available for the stick shift cars; don't know about the Hydramatics.
  • GrimGreaser
    GrimGreaser Senior Contributor
    edited June 2012
    I didn't switch over to 12V to necessarily 'improve' things. I did, however, have all the necessary 12V components lying around in the garage, and the car was already partially converted. I just rewired and went with it. The engine is in need of some TLC... Though it only shows it when starting. It runs like a champ down the road.

    I have a modified Mopar gear-reducing starter now that works great.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Oh I know there are lots of benifits to a 12 volt system. Some as simple as having a 12 volt supply to charge your cell phone. To a more heavy duty reason like A/C to keep you cool. Or as simple as the cd player you want to put in the glove box .
    Basicly its your car and do what you want , ask for opinions and choose the best options for your own case,
    Roger
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