Correct oil for T86 OD

Kdancy
Kdancy Senior Contributor
edited July 2012 in HUDSON
What is the correct oil for a T86 with OD?
Update-
After more research I learned that it should be a GL1 rated gear oil. Strange, as the Hudson manual calls for 90W E.P. Oil and the GL1 does not have the E.P. Modifiers in it. The EP modifiers eat up bronze and brass material.
??

Comments

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Don't fool around, use Castrol 80-140 in trans overdrive and rear. Walt.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    edited July 2012
    Sorry, somehow my post got cut off before I finished it. I was asking if you have definite proof that modern EP oils destroy bronze bushings and thrust washers. My understanding is that this has not been the case for many years now. I have used EP oil in my Jet with overdrive and have had no problems with the bronze washers and synchros therein.
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited July 2012
    Wickipidia --
    Gear oil is a lubricant made specifically for transmissions, transfer cases, and differentials in automobiles, trucks, and other machinery. It is of a higher viscosity to better protect the gears and usually is associated with a strong sulfur smell. The high viscosity ensures transfer of lubricant throughout the gear train. This is necessary since the devices needing this heavy oil do not have pumps for transferring the oil with only a portion of the lowermost gears bathed in an oil sump. This heavy oil can create viscous drag leading to inefficiencies in vehicle operation. Some modern automatic transaxles (integrated transmission and differential) do not use a heavy oil at all but lubricate with the lower viscosity hydraulic fluid, which is available at pressure within the automatic transmission.
    Most lubricants for manual gearboxes and differentials are hypoid gear oils. These contain extreme pressure (EP) additives and antiwear additives to cope with the sliding action of hypoid bevel gears.
    It is extremely important to note that EP additives are corrosive to yellow metals such as copper or brass in bushings and synchronizers. GL1 is the class of gear oils that does not* contain any EP additives. Also GL-5 is not necessarily backward compatible in synchro-mesh transmissions designed for a GL-4 oil due to its corrosiveness to yellow metals and also because GL-5 has a lower coefficient of friction due to the higher concentration of EP additives causing the synchros to not engage as effectively.
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited July 2012
    On this same subject, I called Lucas oil and told them my application. The guy I talked to called me back in a couple of hours and said this is what Lucas recommends- # 10146 50W synthetic (mainly sold for commercial truck use)

    Synthetic 50 wt. Trans Oil
    Lucas Synthetic 50 wt. Trans Oil is designed especially for heavy duty truck transmissions but can be used in many other applications.
    Common gear oils are mostly base stocks with little more than an addition of sulphur and phosphorus as a total anti-wear package. We at Lucas Oil Products consider this inadequate.
    Most heavy duty truck transmission manufacturers now consider sulphur and phosphorus to be potentially corrosive to copper and brass and consequently recommend against common gear oils for this reason.
    The other 50 wt. we have tested, synthetic or otherwise, are pure base stock, we consider this also inadequate.
    Lucas Synthetic 50 wt. contains an exclusive additive concentrate derived from synthetic oil that ensures lower operating temperatures and better lubrication, especially to upper bearings and gears.
    This is a long lasting fluid that is far superior to conventional synthetic fluids and contains nothing that could be harmful.
    Meets or exceeds API MT-1, Eaton Transmission Div., 164 rev 7, Mack Truck TO-A Plus, International Truck TMS 6816 and other applications requiring non-EP Lubricants.

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Just a good way to sell LUCAS's products. Use the 80-140 and you will have no problems. Transmissions I overhauled 10 years ago are still running with 80-140 and have had no problems. Walt.
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Walt, I could not find the 80-140 on the Castrol website- do you have a part #?
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    The Hudson Jet owner's manual stipulates EP 80 for Winter and EP 90 for summer. What has changed? I've been using this for over 40 years.
  • 53jetman
    53jetman Senior Contributor
    I use Valvoline SAE 80-90 EP gear lube in all standard trans and rear axles. Have for over 50 years, and every thing has held together so far. Have not reason to believe otherwise
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    all auto stores carry 80-140 in different brands. Use any one you want. Walt
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    edited July 2012
    Considering what's being said here, I'm surprised we haven't been reading or hearing of individuals having problems with their vintage vehicle's transmissions and/or differentials due to wrong type of gear oil much like you hear about motor oil now lacking zinc.

    I just purchased a quart of Lucas SAE 80W-90 gear oil for my Hudsons. Should I use it or exchange it for the 80-140? And, if I so choose, is this 80-140 compatible with the 80-90 gear oil I presently have in my transmissions or should they be drained of the 80-90 and then refilled with 80 - 140.

    Funny, I was at Wal-Mart earlier in the day and saw that they only had 80-140 gear oil (their brand) for sale and thought, "better stay away from this as it isn't good 'ole 80-90!"

    A confused Dan!
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    I have a head ache after reading over this issue for the last few days. But, on every oil site I go to - concerning EP rated oils in transmissions with yellow metal -- those oils do corrode those types of metal.
    I suspect that there is an issue with this if you drive on a regular basis and did oil anaylisis on the tranny oil.
    My personall view at this point is to stay away from the high EP rated gear oil unless the maker (such as Red Line ) specifically says their oil is formulated for yellow metal use.

    MT-90 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil

    75W90 GL-4 gear oil (similar to SAE 5W40/10W40 engine oil viscosity)
    Popular in Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, VW/Audi, Lotus Elise/Exige, Toyota
    Offers quicker shifts, perfect synchronizer coefficient of friction
    Safe for brass synchros, as it lacks the reactive sulfurs found in most GL-5 oils that cause damageHigh performance gear protection and longer synchro life
    Eliminates notchy shifting, even when cold
    Satisifies the gear oil viscosity requirements of 75W, 80W and motor oil viscosities of SAE 40, 10W40, and 15W40
    Recommended for GL-1, GL-3, and GL-4 applications, as well as where most special synchromesh fluids are specified







  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    I don't know. All this "dangerous" gear oil talk still has me discombobulated. For example, I went to the nearby Auto Zone car parts store and checked out the gear oil quart bottles for sale there. All seem to exceed GL-5 standards (in other words, worse than plain GL-5) which apparently, from the discussions here, indicates these oils are really downright bad for our Hudson drivetrains.

    By the way, the only Castrol gear oil that was for sale at Auto Zone was the 85-140 (not the 80-140 that Walt recommends).

    I had my clutch removed and replaced about six years ago. I'm now wondering what gear oil was used to replace the oil that in the transmission and overdrive of my 1950 Pacemaker. Wondering if I should drain and replace it with this GL-4 MT-90 which is only $14.95 per quart.

    Discombubulated Dan

    PS Are there any bad chassis greases we should now know about?

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited July 2012
    Discombubulated Dan,
    Over on the Studebaker forum, Ted Harbit, who has raced since the 50's, said that he has had good luck with the Red Line MT 90 and as the above statement says, it will not affect the yellow metal. Studebaker used the T86 OD tranny as well as Hudson.
    I now have a headache Kerry

    (I know of two transmissions(T86 OD) that the syncro's were shot, and the use of wrong type oil is the suspect on both)
  • mars55
    mars55 Senior Contributor
    Here is some more info on EP additives being corrosive to yellow metals. This is from a site called Machinery Lubricantion.

    http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/24959/gear-oil-questions-answers

    Q: I heard that EP additives are corrosive to yellow metals such as brass and bronze. Is this true?
    A: In some circumstances, this can by true. Certain types of EP additives are designed to react with metal surfaces under elevated temperatures to protect them under boundary lubrication conditions. These types of additives are often referred to as “chemically active”, and at elevated temperatures (greater than 140 to 150 F), they can indeed start to react with yellow metals. For this reason, apply caution when selecting gear oils for worm drives; the ring gear is often a yellow metal alloy.
    A good way to check to see if an oil is “chemically active” is to look at the specification sheet provided by the lubricant manufacturer. On the sheet, you will typically see a test referred to as “copper strip corrosion” (ASTM D130). This tests how chemically reactive an oil is to copper and copper-containing alloys. For gear oils, a 1a rating is typically a good indicator that the oil is chemically inert, while higher ratings (such as 1b or 2a) might indicate possible problems when used in certain gearing at elevated operating temperatures. Often, a lubricant manufacturer will specifically state “this oil should not be used in gearboxes containing yellow metals”; other times, the manufacturer will simply state that the oil is appropriate for “steel-on-steel” applications – the implication being that they should not be used in situations where the ring gear is brass or bronze.

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    At 72,000 miles I changed the rear ratio in my Hornet from 308 to 2:73 and filled with Castrol 80-140, and the spider gears have brass spacer, I now have 140,000 miles and and rear is quiet and no spider gear slack. Dana had the gears and they were for the Dana 44 which Hudson used starting in the second half of 1952. I'll stick to 80-140 in all my cars including my 5 speed Jeep which now has 205,000 miles and trans or rear never touched. Walt.
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    another one- Royal Purple
    I do use their product in my 7.5hp air compressor and did see a difference the first time I changed over to it. It is pricey-
    Max Gear is recommended for use in truck and automotive front or rear differentials, manual transmissions and lower gear units of marine engines that specify use of an API GL-5 or GL-4 fluid. It is non-corrosive to soft yellow metals (brass, bronze, copper, etc.) and synchronizer safe
    Max Gear is available in the following viscosities: 75W-90, 75W-140, 80W-90, 85W-140 and SAE 9
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