308 Aluminum Head

LanceB
LanceB Senior Contributor
edited December 2012 in HUDSON
Hi all,
I was going to go to a meet this morning, had the truck out warming up and noticed that I was blowing steam. Did not get any better when I started to head over so I turned around and parked it.

I am going to pull the head and replace the gasket. I need to know what the minimum thickness can be for the aluminum head, 1952 308, and where that thickness is measured from in case it is warped and I need to machine it.

If anyone has some other thought why I'm blowing steam please let me know.

Thanks,
Lance

Comments

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
  • In my case with a 308,knowing that this engine has a history of not getting enough tork on the head bolts drilled out the block and head from 7/16 head bolts to 1/2 head bolts. I was able to tork the head down to 90 foot pounds as compared to the 65 or 70 the book says.So far no more issue of compression or cooling failing, Also decked the head and block. Head gaskets cost alot so it becomes an issue of how much will one spend on replacing the head gaskets every 30,000 miles??? Good luck on this as I know it is a Hudson issue......Most every one I know has had this issue .
  • The most you can mill the head is 60 thousand and will measure 1 inch 900 and 40 thousands. You can mill the block 10 thousands. You will be better off if you replace the head with a cast iron one. Walt.
  • The most you can mill the head is 60 thousand and will measure 1 inch 900 and 40 thousands. You can mill the block 10 thousands. You will be better off if you replace the head with a cast iron one. Walt.
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    Before you tear it apart ask yourself... Are you losing coolant? Could it just be condensation that you see at the tailpipe on cold day after been setting, Are the plugs wet? Did you take a compression Test? Is there water in the oil? (You can tell by leaving set overnight then drain a little oil into a clear Jar. (Water & oil will seperate).. Maybe Ive been lucky because never had a problem running aluminum heads.
  • Yes, Ol racer is on topic........I have a rule on this sort of thing ....9 times out of ten it is something simple.......How many times we think the engine needs to be rebuilt when it is some thing simple,only to discover what good shape the hard parts of the engine are in when tearing it down. This I have learned the hard way. Please do check the vacuum and compreasion before assuming that the head is at falt.
  • LanceB
    LanceB Senior Contributor
    Hey Ken it was 30 this morning here in Temple City. Going to the Rose Parade tomorrow and bringing extra blankets!

    I had let the truck run for quite a while yesterday and before that I put in a gal of collant so I had worries. It just kep blowing water and steam. I removed the head today and found a couple cracks and a complete missing part of the gasket, about 3/16 wide. Cleaned the block and head surfaces and ran my 18 inch straight edge over the head. Looked good. I will need to get my calipers from work to measure the thickness but it is stamped .020, so I think I have upto .040 left. Hopefully only .010 will be needed.

    Thanks for all your help guys!
  • LanceB
    LanceB Senior Contributor
    It was between cylinders. I did have some pinging and that changed with new gas. Will check the advance also when I put it all back together. Any recomedations on gaskeds or get one from Dale?
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    FYI
    Today By all means use the BEST 'Proform' Gasket from Randy Maas or Dale Cooper. Make sure the block & head are true. I would use 7/16 Studs to get a truer Torque, but you can do well with Bolts by cleaning the threads and put grease under the washers and bolt heads. I like to re torque Aluminum heads 70# hot & cold a couple times. I know 'Best' says install dry but I use K&W Spray Copper on both sides gasket (not Permatex) then let it set few min's to get tacky before setting head onto gasket.
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    FYI
    Be sure to change your oil because of losing coolant and replacing the gasket because surely some coolant went into the pan..
  • PAULARGETYPE
    PAULARGETYPE Senior Contributor
    I WOULD CHANGE THE HEAD BOLTS IF THERE OLD ONES FROM YEARS AGO I HAVE NEW 7/16 GRADE 8 BOLTS YOU CAN CRANK ON THEY COME WITH NICE THICK WASHERS $25 THATS WITH SHIPPING THE HEAD SIZE OF THE BOLTS IS NOT 3/4 LIKE THE ORIGNAL ONES THEY ARE SMALLER 11/16 I THINK
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited January 2013

    Some notes by Ivan Zaremba on the subject- (Ivan is a professional classic race car mechanic-restorer)
    Anti-seize—sure! Just torque them to the recommended figure. The need for re-torqueing the head multiple times at intervals until it does “come down” any further is also key. I don’t think I consider it done until after 500 miles of running and 3,4, or 5 torque sessions.

    The corrosion and erosion issues with aluminum heads are real. They can be dealt with by using distilled water with coolant and, additionally, not letting the engines sit dormant. The curious chemistry of the corrosion inhibitors in coolants/antifreeze is such that at the location where electrolytic corrosion occurs between dissimilar metals, those inhibitors are consumed locally. The coolant must be circulated by running the engine to leave coolant with inhibitors in the problem areas. That is why vehicles that are driven daily or regularly do not have this problem and “hobby” cars that are run occasionally do. You may have noticed where a radiator hose is clamped over an aluminum part (and there is therefore no circulation) you always find the white aluminum corrosion evident. So change the coolant annually and run the engine to open the thermostat weekly. Some restorers actually paint these areas under the hose with an epoxy that shields the aluminum. Such is my work world—that where $50K engine overhauls are common.
    Check out my company website: http://www.philreillycompany.com/index.htm
    More From: Ivan Zaremba


    Jack Clifford gave me good advice about torqueing a Hudson head. Use Copper Coat (or aluminum paint) on both sides of the gasket lightly, sealer like Permatex on the bolt threads and motor oil under the head of the bolt. Initially, use the standard shop manual sequence and a lower torque figure like 40 ft/lbs, but after the first 9 fasteners are done, go back to the beginning and go over them in sequence again and then go on to do the next 6. Then go back to the first one again and do the 15 again and continue through the last 6. Then repeat the whole 21 starting at the beginning. Now you are ready to move the torque value up to 50 ft/lbs and go through that “wave” technique to insure that the head pulls down evenly. Increase the torque and repeat until you reach the final value.

    After starting the engine and bringing it up to normal temp with the thermostat opening and water circulating fully, shut it off and wait at least four hours for it to cool off and do the first re-torque.
    The re-torque does not involve the “Clifford Waves”. Just back the fasteners off 1/8 to 1/4 turn pull them to torque. I mark a line crossways on the heads of the fasteners with a felt pen after the first heat cycle and re-torque. This gives a visual indication of the change as the head gasket “comes down”. Basically, when you re-torque and all the fasteners stay with the marks in the same position, you are finished. The Best gaskets do not require as much re-torqueing as the NOS Felpro and the original type gaskets.

    I do it after the first heat cycle, after 25 miles, after 100 miles, and again after 500. The Best gaskets do not seem to change after 100 miles and three re-torques.

    Sounds complicated, but results are worth it!
    Cheers,
    Ivan
  • LanceB
    LanceB Senior Contributor
    Thanks everyone. I am going to replace all the head bolts, with Grade 8 of course. I have drained the oil and cleaned out the oil filter canister. I still need to drop the pan and clean that completly. I am also going to replace the spark plugs.

    I was going to do the torque series also after hot and cold, but it's very good to read how it should be done.

    Again, thanks all! I'll keep you informed.
  • LanceB
    LanceB Senior Contributor
    BTW, Happy New Year!
  • dougson
    dougson Senior Contributor
    I followed Ivan's protocols when attaching an aluminum head to my engine. The head is a '54, drilled to accept 1/2" 7X studs, the block is a '56. The head was torqued to 75 lbs. I added a little BAR's sealent and the bubbling stopped. I run distilled water and "Water Wetter", and only a little antifreeze. Change it yearly.
  • MikeWA
    MikeWA Senior Contributor
    I have an aluminum head that I was thinking about putting on. After reading Ivan's thoughts on the dissimilar metal problem, am wondering if it would be better to just drain the cooling system (and blow it out with air) after the Hudson driving season, and not use any antifreeze at all? I only use the car in the summer- mainly because it rains so much here, and I don't have good weatherstripping (or functioning heater), plus I really do not like cleaning the car after driving in the rain, either.
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