electric fuel pump-stepdowns

[Deleted User]
edited February 2013 in HUDSON
I'm thinking, after last year's experience going to Gettysburg, that I would like to put an electric fuel pump into my Pacemaker, down by the gas tank. Is there a specific one that works best or that you folks would recommend? I've also read about putting a filter into the line before the pump. Since it would be hard to get at, is there one that would be best, that would not need changing often?
If the electric pump is insalled, can it be used only for a short time or for several minutes? I experienced vapor lock in the heat and on the long hills, so would I be able to run the electric pump for some period of time or would that flood the carburator?
middletom

Comments

  • GrimGreaser
    GrimGreaser Senior Contributor
    I have my electric fuel pump and filter in front of the passenger wheel well mounted on the cross frame. Not terrible to get under there for filter service - got pretty good at it since my tank is full of sediment. ;) It's a old Parker electric diaphragm pump that works really well.

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p4259/overview/

    Have a 12V one feeding my '85 GMC Jimmy, it runs all the time while engine is running.

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g1507/overview/

    Would probably be the easiest to service fuel filter.
  • Browniepetersen
    Browniepetersen Senior Contributor
    OK, let's talk about why an electric pump. It has to do with the viscosity of the gas. Since the folks took out the lead and then started adding ethonol the gas is much thinner and our fuel pumps are not as efficient at moving the gas. Also, because of this the heat of the manifold causes the gas to boil away or vaporize etto vaporlock. So, since the electric fuel pump puts positive pressure gas to the carb, it does not always solve the vaporlock. You need to add a gas line return to your system. I like to pick up a gas filter with two tubes on one end and one on the other so as the pressure builds within the system the overflow can return to the tank keeping constant cool gas in your line. Brand of fuel pump is not important--any 6volt will do. And you want to run it all the time.
  • The only thing I would ad to what Brownie said is a restrictor orifice or regulator should go in that return line.
  • RonS
    RonS Senior Contributor
    edited February 2013
    I must advise not just any electric pump(EP), but a "free-flow" type if it will be installed inline. Otherwise, when the car is being operated without the EP, the MP (mechanical pump) will starve for fuel as it won't be able to draw gas up the fuel line. Free flow type specifically is the Air-Tex Solenoid type. The Carter rotary vane is the best for an EP only, but can restrict flow if the vanes stop in front of the outlet. Also, I frankly,could not find a good/safe location to conveniently mount that EP behind the rear axel on a stepdown. Maybe someone knows. Do not use a 12 volt Garator( gear driven) pump( no 6 volt are made by Carter). Fuel only passes when the pump is running... NG for part time usage. Park W. put a great illustration of a rotary vane on the forum a couple of years ago. I also tried the return line (with a .030 orifice) as Walt M advised, but had little effect, as most of my issue was a weak MP and Arizona heat cooking the fuel in the bowls. Solved by sending the fuel pump out for a GOOD rebuild, moving the fuel line and covering it with Mylar. Covering the MP with a Mylar "blanket" and adding three Ford carb gaskets (phenolic) below the carb heat shields on each WA-1. So far so good. The EP should not flood since there are internal regulators, but if it does a GOOD pressure regulator will be in order. AND no winter gas in the summer.
  • The problem with vapor lock in our older cars is only going to get worse. In the not-to-distant future, gas in the USSA will be 15% ethanol. A return line to the gas tank is a proactive measure to help deal with this problem going forward.

    Kevin C.
  • Brownie and Ron, the return line you suggest would have to reenter the tank at the top? I am not mechanical and have no place to work, so have a garage do it all. I'll run it by them for they will have a better picture of what to do. Thank you all for your help. I'll get onto that as soon as the snow is below my knees.

    Geoff Blake
  • Most guys run it into the filler neck up in the trunk above the fuel level and elbow it downard,
    Roger
  • Uncle Josh
    Uncle Josh Senior Contributor
    In addition to the heat, the vacuum the pump creates causes the gas to boil also. Remember high school science where water boiled at room temperature? There is a screen in the pump which has to be kept clean or it will increase the vacuum, increasing the tendency to vapor lock. A mechanical pump can't pump vapor. A cooler with a bag of ice cubes can be used to condense the vapor and get your pump going again. Keep it running if you can to keep cooler gas flowing. That's the value of the return line, probably the best fix.

    I have an electric on the Hornet, under the middle of the car with a $5 clear plastic filter in front of it. Easy to see how dirty it's getting and to change. I can switch it on and off under the dash. Only need it if it's set for several days or overheating.

    BTW, clothes pins on the fuel line don't work..only for old wives.
  • RonS
    RonS Senior Contributor
    edited February 2013
    What do they do for old wives? As Roger said the line should go to a 1/4 " hole as high up on the filler neck as not to be touched by a gas station filler nozzle. A length of copper tubing( 1/4" thick and curved like a letter C ) soldered or JBWelded pointed down in the hole. Use a brass drill bit for added safety from sparks. Then comes the fun ... running the line with a restrictor(.030) to maintain fuel pump pressure. Walt M has good instructions in his book. BTY, 15% ethanol is not coming for older cars, and maybe not for any. More likely natural gas in trucks first. 15% ethanol is only being considered for cars built after 2007, pumps will be marked. Most stations are choosing not to sell it.
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    edited February 2013
    Back to Middletom's original post . . . regarding the filter, it's not just something to consider, it's more like mandatory. Most electric pumps come with a manufacturer's statement that the warranty is void if there's not a filter between the tank and the electric pump.

    While Brownie's and Walt's remarks about the return line are quite valid, many of us have found that even without the return line, our problems are resolved by just having the electric pump to switch on when the engine falters in high heat situations.

    Here's the rotary pump with check-valve bypass, on my '47
  • bngkellycharternet
    bngkellycharternet Senior Contributor
    I have two 6 volts gear driven electric fuel pumps mfg by carter on my hudsons, one being a hornet and onea jet. bill
  • Walt here. With my return fuel system I drove my 53 Hornet Coupe from S F to Oklahoma City and back and never had any problems, When we left S F, temp in the 60's and by the time we got to southern Ca temp started to rise, 100 and kept getting hotter as we traveled east. We were traveling on route 40 and at the Texas pan handle it was 113 degrees and stayed that way while at the National and half way back home. Never had a problem. I learned one thing, when stopping to get gas, turn the ignition on and leave the electric pump running, cool gas passing through the engine pump. My electric pump ran the complete trip. Fuel line story is in my tech tip books which are still for sale. Walt.
  • RonS
    RonS Senior Contributor
    Bill, are they the lone source of fuel delivery? Or in line with a mech pump? What is the model. I called Federal-Mogul a couple of years ago. I was advised that they did not make a six volt Carotor( gear driven) Pump. According to their home page, they still don't. Only Rotary vane or a Solenoid type in 6v.
  • Browniepetersen
    Browniepetersen Senior Contributor
    Never use copper in your gas line system. It becomes brittle, cracks, leaks--if it is near a power source you most likely will have a fire. Once on fire an entire car will burn. It takes less than four minutes with a car fire to have the gas tank explode. Just saying,
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    edited February 2013
    46Hud, It was McMaster-Carr, their #7775K52. It's from a line of "quick-opening" check valves, selected to be sure the suction of the mechanical pump will pull it open easily. Female1/4" pipe thread at each end. About $15.
  • Park_W
    Park_W Senior Contributor
    Brownie, maybe I've just been lucky, but I've had copper tubing on cars for decades, with no such problems.
  • Browniepetersen
    Browniepetersen Senior Contributor
    Park, I am not sure if my knowledge as an Aerospace Safety Professional; or, my schooling in Chemistry brought this knowledge to mind? Perhaps it might have been that back in my "hot rod" days I had a 3X2's carb set up with copper; and at the drag strip, it gave way and caught my car on fire. After loosing that car I did some investigation and did some tests and figured out why. I find most folks use copper because it is easy to work with. Perhaps the easy way is not always the best way? It may never happen to me again--but, I am not willing to take that bet.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    My '28 Essex still has it's original copper petrol tubing. You do have a point though, as copper does work harden, but there is very little movement anywhere, as the pipe is clipped well on to the chassis. Only point of slight movement would be from the bulkhead to the vacuum tank, and from there to the carby, but I have a coil in here to absorb vibrations, and the engine does'nt wobble around like the later rubber mounts. And copper doesn't rust. I did have the oil pressure gauge crack off at the joint and pumped all the oil on to the road 45 years ago. replaced it with a flexible line, no problems since, but I probably should replace that again, as the flexible lines are probably more likely to fail than the copper.
  • RonS
    RonS Senior Contributor
    Guys, a good product is cunifer tubing. Bends like copper but has the hydraulic strength and looks of steel. Check it out at Federal Hill Trading.
  • GrimGreaser
    GrimGreaser Senior Contributor
    Bundy weld tubing good too, fuel and brake speciific. Get it by the coil from McMaster or most parts stores have various finished (flared w/ fittings) lengths.
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