Changed Clutch Fluid - There was none to drain!
I have been following the advice from prior threads on how to drain the clutch fluid in my 1949 Hudson Commodore 8. I was nervous, but the instructions got me through it. I dropped the drain bolt and had top pull the flywheel access cover of course. When I rotated the drain hole I had expected a lot of fluid to pour out. What I got was a very small trickle of perhaps one cap full ( being generous ). I refilled with Hudsonite that I obtained from the HET Club and put in the prescribed 6 oz. The clutch seems to be working, but will need to put some miles on it to see if this resolves the slight chattering I got during 1st gear start from a dead stop. That was the only issue I had with the clutch.
Question - how the heck did this clutch work as well as it did with no fluid in it? How much have I damaged the clutch by driving it with no fluid? When I got the car, I had a mechanic who said he knew Hudsons check it all over. He changed the engine oil, topped up the brake reservior fluid and changed the fluids in the transmission and OD. I must admit he did not say he checked the clutch fluid, that was before I knew I had a wet clutch.
How can a Hudson clutch stand this level of abuse? Advise for all newbies - check the fluids ( all of them ) and check the Hudsonite level in the clutch.
Now should I do a clutch flush, or should I drive it a while and then flush and change oil again? What would be your recommendations? Boy do I feel stupid for not checking this before!
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )
Question - how the heck did this clutch work as well as it did with no fluid in it? How much have I damaged the clutch by driving it with no fluid? When I got the car, I had a mechanic who said he knew Hudsons check it all over. He changed the engine oil, topped up the brake reservior fluid and changed the fluids in the transmission and OD. I must admit he did not say he checked the clutch fluid, that was before I knew I had a wet clutch.
How can a Hudson clutch stand this level of abuse? Advise for all newbies - check the fluids ( all of them ) and check the Hudsonite level in the clutch.
Now should I do a clutch flush, or should I drive it a while and then flush and change oil again? What would be your recommendations? Boy do I feel stupid for not checking this before!
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )
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Comments
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Don't feel bad, there are probably thousands of people who purchased, drove, and eventually sold their Hudsons, blissfully unaware all the while that the clutches needed periodic oil refills. Unlike you, however, many of them never learned the truth and remedied the situation. They eventually sold or junked their cars because "that ^%$#@! clutch always gave me a lot of trouble!"
You should ask the fellow who serviced your car specifically if he did change the clutch oil. Because if he DID, then the thing is leaking rather rapidly! (You can check the floor under your car to monitor this situation.) If it's not leaking, just drive it around and don't worry that you've damaged the clutch unless it drops out on the highway.0 -
Well I Would Drain The Clutch After About 100 Miles And Install 6 Oz New Clutch Fulid Again As Jon Said I Would Be Checking For Spots On The Floor Or Other Signs Of Leaking I Feel The New Fulid Should Fix You Chattering Problem Good Luck0
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Gary , Many years ago I had just taken possession of a used Pacemaker and no one had told me about changing the "wet" clutch. I drove the car dry for about 30-40 miles when all of a sudden the floorboard started getting real hot and soon--No power to the wheels forward or backward! it was right then I learned what a wet clutch was. I took out the front seat took up the floorpan and changed the clutch without the car ever getting off the ground. Quite an education, but one I never forgot-keep the fluid up at all times. It's not worth the trouble of having to replace cork plates and clean off pressure plates. Welcome the the idosyncratic world of Hudsons!0
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I appreciate those inputs. I will drive for the 100 miles and then change the fluid again. I have not seen fluid under the car. The mechanic that did the work is in another state, so I will probably not be able to contact him. My guess is that he did not add or change the fluid. The car sat for years before I obtained it from the original owner. I will check for fluid leakage.
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )0 -
Chris... While your situation seems to be remedied with the addtition of clutch fluid... do be aware the throw out bearing for the Hudsons has two seals and if either of the seals is bad ... over time it will coat the inside of the bell housing with clutch fluid. This type of leak is not one that generally causes a drip to appear. Seals on the bearing are in the center where the trans main shaft passes and the outside edge of the bearing where it slides in and out of the sealed clutch cover. If the edge of the bearing seal is bent over it will seap or leak.happychris wrote:I appreciate those inputs. I will drive for the 100 miles and then change the fluid again. I have not seen fluid under the car. The mechanic that did the work is in another state, so I will probably not be able to contact him. My guess is that he did not add or change the fluid. The car sat for years before I obtained it from the original owner. I will check for fluid leakage.
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )
Cheers
Ken0 -
Seems to me that it would be easier to replace the clutch with a good quality dry type like just about every other car has and be done with it. I am sure someone here must have done that considering all the different modifications people here have done with their Hudsons. From what I have seen in the past posted here on clutches and what I have read in my service manual, this wet clutch is a pain in the butt and I just don't see the advantage to it. I am still new to Hudsons and learning so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.0
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The Hudson clutch is an excellent, trouble-free device which will give years and years of service with minimum wear and adjustment. The oil bath provides hydraulic tension (something like a torque coverter) so wear is minimal. HET Club Member Doug Wildrick in Indianapolis rebuilds Hudson clutches to new, and if you replace yours and maintain it, you won't live long enuff to need another one...0
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464Saloon wrote:Seems to me that it would be easier to replace the clutch with a good quality dry type like just about every other car has and be done with it. I am sure someone here must have done that considering all the different modifications people here have done with their Hudsons. From what I have seen in the past posted here on clutches and what I have read in my service manual, this wet clutch is a pain in the butt and I just don't see the advantage to it. I am still new to Hudsons and learning so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
you're wrong.....
Okay, I had the same thoughts about this as you have written, but what it comes down to is once you get the hudson clutch properly adjusted, and good seriveable parts into the unit, it will indeed perform flawlessly forever. I think there is only one person out there doing a modification, it is $$$$$ expensive, and I would say you could try more than once with the original set-up, and get it right, before you would come near the cost of the dry clutch. BTW, the wet clutch is quite smooth, when it is properly adjusted. I don't know, just my thoughts. Even better would be a hydromatic.0 -
Hudsonkid is spot on when he says its bulletproof when you maintain it properly. Hudson used a lighter flywheel because the wet clutch dissipates heat more efficiently and provides a smoother shift. Add its maintenance to your regular procedure and that clutch will outlive any dry clutch setup made.0
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51hornetA wrote:Hudsonkid is spot on when he says its bulletproof when you maintain it properly. Hudson used a lighter flywheel because the wet clutch dissipates heat more efficiently and provides a smoother shift. Add its maintenance to your regular procedure and that clutch will outlive any dry clutch setup made.
I have a 1929 Hudson with the wet clutch I had recorked about 18 years ago only because the car sat so long the clutch was stuck. It works like a charm and would not think of changing it to something else. Thanks Ron0 -
Heart of Texas,
If you do have a throw-out bearing issue, would the lower inspection cover also get coated with clutch fluid ( the lower cover that gives you access to the lower flywheel ) - the cover you have to remove to retrieve the fill hole bolt that you always drop. The reason I ask is that when I pulled that cover, the inside was dry. Am I correct to assume that if I had a leaking throw-out bearing, that the access cover would have a coating of clutch fluid?
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )0 -
464Saloon wrote:Seems to me that it would be easier to replace the clutch with a good quality dry type like just about every other car has and be done with it. I am sure someone here must have done that considering all the different modifications people here have done with their Hudsons. From what I have seen in the past posted here on clutches and what I have read in my service manual, this wet clutch is a pain in the butt and I just don't see the advantage to it. I am still new to Hudsons and learning so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Dry clutch?! Hudson blastphemy!!!!!!!! Hudson started putting that clutch in their cars in the 1920's I believe and had it ever since even after they merged and it was STILL the smoothest clutch in the whole auto industry. It'll work just fine as long as you keep that fluid in it. Thing is most people didn't wanna do the changes because you kinda gotta stand on your head to do it. Since you can no longer take it to yur authorized Hudson dealer, either you have to do it or take it to Doug Wildrick or some other well-versed HET member but there is nothing wrong with it in engineering/mechanical terms, even if it is made out of cork. LOL It's also a good conversation starter at car shows. People are just too lazy to do routine maintainence.... like newer cars of the '70's - '80's with charcoal canisters that never got changed for example. Older cars just require more routine maintanence....oil change, grease points, 90 weight and Hudsonite... make it a habit.0 -
Aaron thats a really good point about routine maintenance. Lots of Hud owners and other older car owners do not do the required work to keep these cars in top shape. They never grease them or lube any of the points the Hudson lube schedule says. I got my chart laminated and its in the garage I do it all even the doors, hood, trunk, distributor. I put white grease on the door strikers and never have a bit of trouble. Every year I adjust the bands in my Hydramatic. Takes me about an hour to do it all. Keeps everything running nice and easy.0
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Hudson did use a Borg and Beck dry clutch in the Jet in '53 and '54, and the Hash models to '57. These are not interchangeable with the wet clutch, as the flywheels are heavier, and different diameter, and different spline centres. There is nothing wrong with a dry clutch, but it will not take as much abuse as a wet clutch. You cannot modify a Hudson wet clutch to run with a dry plate, as the flywheel is too light, and the spring pressure is different. Like has been said, maintenance is the key. Incidentally, so long as there is still a trace of oil in there, the clutch seems to work fine, providing it is not abused, but the proper amount will ensure trouble-free operation. No doubt the change to a dry clutch for the Jet was for economic reasons, heaven knows, it was still too high priced!
Geoff.0 -
Chris... U are correct... in your observation. If there is clutch fluid in the clutch and the throw out bearing is leaking the cover will have a fluid coating. Large leaks will cause the fluid to drip from the punched drain point in the cover.
Cheers and have a wonderful day.0 -
A couple of years ago I changed my '49 over to overdrive. When I removed the clutch I was surprised to see that it was dry. I'd filled it properly that spring, but after 4000 miles that summer it appears to have developed a slight leak at one of the drain plugs (I had so many leaks that summer, mainly from the engine rear main, I never noticed that some of those spots I was leaving must have been Hudsonite!) It's probably a good thing I was planning on a new clutch anyway that winter. That explains why it was so rough and 'chattery' by the end of that summer.
I went ahead and had a complete Wildrick rebuild of everything (clutch disc, pressure plate, throw-out bearing replaced and flywheel resurfaced), being sure to use a new gasket around the clutch cover, as well as a smear of gasket sealer between the crankshaft and flywheel, as it will seep out of there over time.
Anyway, as stated above, if a Hudson clutch is properly set up and maintained, it's a thing of beauty. You'll love the smooth, sure engagement much better than any dry clutch. Besides, it's one of Hudson's most enduring, (and endearing) differences between them and all of those Brand X's.0 -
That's referring to Doug Wildrick, the resident Hudson clutch (among other things) expert.
Dr. Doug's website is;
http://vintageautorestoration.com/0 -
I must agree on the routine lubrication points as in my centerpoint steering is shot and I would bet that if it has the original 66,000 miles on it that I was told, then it probably was from lack of lubrication. As for the clutch, I am still a little miffed. Right now my car is at my buddy's trans shop up on a lift. We need to replace the trans mount and rebuild the centerpoint. Looking through the opening on the bellhousing from the passenger side,it looks like the clutch is about have worn. I have no idea where the fluid is held, as it looks to us like a standard pressure plate. I don't know if I have fluid in there or not. It does slip a little if it is in overdrive when you first shift to second and get on the throttle.0
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The March/April issue of White Triangle News has a complete, illustrated article on repairing center point steering.0
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464, you are saying that you're not sure how to check / change clutch oil? Well, assuming yours hasn't already been replaced by a dry clutch, you start by looking through the inspection hole in the engine rear support plate, on the driver's side (viewed from the engine compartment). You'll see the flywheel. When you hit the starter (with coil wire removed from distributor cap so engine doesn't start) you will see the hex filler plugs for the clutch oil, located 180 degrees apart on the flywheel. When one of the plugs is visible thorugh the hole, use a socket wrench to loosen it, then remove it with your fingers. Don't drop it or you'll have to get under the car and remove the flywheel cover to retrieve it. After removing the plug, rotate the flywheel until you see the star (stamped in the flywheel) in the hole; this means that the filler hole is now at 6 o-clock, and you can drain whatever fluid is left in the clutch. (Be sure to have a pan under the flywheel cover to catch what you're draining.) Then rotate again til the filler hole appears, and you can add 1/3 pint of new oil and replace the plug.
Older Hudsons have a remote starter button, which is found under a cap on the back of the solenoid. Unscrew and remove the cap to expose the button. It's easiest to use this to rotate the engine.
New Hudsonite is available through the H-E-T Club Store, on Ebay (occasionally) at from Doug Wildrick (who actually makes up his own version). Doug also rebuilds Hudson clutches, if you ever have the need. Hudsonite is sold in 6-oz. bottles (the size of one refill).
In a pinch you can use automatic transmission fluid (type F, I believe).0 -
464Saloon,
It sounds like you already have a dry clutch if you can see the clutch plate from outside. A Hudson clutch disc is not going to be visible until you unscrew and remove the clutch cover (pressure plate). The friction material used is many rows of corks. These are actually about the size of wine corks, and they're only about 1/4" thick to begin with.0 -
We're checking into that. Sounded here like that was a difficult changeover. What puzzles me is that if it only has 66,000 miles on it, how in the world has already been converted to a dry clutch. If only cars could talk.0
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Here is a picture of a cork clutch at our store for reference. Hope it helps.0
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GEEZ that is an ugly looking beast that looks more like something glued together by preschoolers than engineers. Now the question is how is the fluid held in. Does the pressure plate seal to the flywheel? I can't think of any other way that the fluid could be contained around the clutch plate.0
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Okay, here we go:
The back of the crankshaft is at left. The yoke bolts to the flywheel (the tall plate). The clutch cover (8) bolts to the back of the flywheel (you can see the cover through the openings in the bellhousing). There's a gasket around the perimeter of the clutch cover, so the clutch oil is trapped by the cover and the flywheel. You can see one of the plugs in the flywheel for adding Hudsonite, at the bottom of the picture (plug faces left). The pressure plate is (2), hard to see the arrow but look closely. Betwixt pressure plate and flywheel is the clutch disc with corks. Transmission input shaft goes off to right. Throwout bearing is (12). Hope this clears things up!0 -
464Saloon wrote:GEEZ that is an ugly looking beast that looks more like something glued together by preschoolers than engineers. Now the question is how is the fluid held in. Does the pressure plate seal to the flywheel? I can't think of any other way that the fluid could be contained around the clutch plate.
Judging by the sweet clutch action in my 66-year-old Hudson, them were sum durn smart pre-schoolers...0 -
I've just flushed out the clutch on my '53 Wasp and replaced the fluid with Hudsonite. Seems to have done the trick as it does not chatter anymore. A question: when my clutch pedal is all the way up, transmission in neutral, I'm getting a rhythmical clacking sound transmitted through the floorboards that varies with the engine speed. Sounds to me like a throwoutbearing but with the clutch all the way up, I would thing that the throwout bearing would not be engaged. Any thoughts?
Harry0 -
Noisy throwout bearing maybe when clutch at the top of its travel? Have a rhythmical clacking sound that varies with the engine speed. Any thoughts?
Harry0 -
Harry
The throw out bearing has a fitting on the side of the bell housing which has a grease zerk in it... usually... have you greased the bearing? If not service it and see what the results are....
Cheers from Texas0 -
The "clacking" sound will be the clutch fingers not adjusted properly. One of them is too low and not resting on the throwout bearing surface, and rattling around. You will have to take the transmission out to fix this. It is covered in the workshop manual.
Geoff.0
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