54 Hornet Special Brougham for sale
I recently purchased a 54 Hornet Special Brougham which was advertised on this website by an HET Club Member from northwest Michigan. I will call him MI in this post. In both his written ad and verbally to me on the phone MI claimed that the car had a good frame. Original ad on the link below.
http://www.classiccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5613
The transport driver who delivered the car to me in North Carolina told me that when he loaded up the car in Michigan, MI looked under it and stated
"this is the first good look I have had at this car" and " I hope he will still want the car". At this point MI should have stopped the shipment and called
me since the condition of the car was now found to be different than what he represented to me. He did not.
When the car arrived it was on the top rack of the transport. The driver and I looked it over and he then told me what MI had said. I e-mailed MI and told him that we had a problem. He called me and began yelling at me over the phone. I tried to reason with him but had no luck. I offered to e-mail pictures of the damage and he refused the idea. Despite promoting the car as having a "good frame" , he was now claiming that he knew very little about stepdown frames. Based on what the transport driver told me MI knew there was a problem when he shipped the car and I suspect long before that. MI himself told me that he looked under the car when it was up on the transport.
I contacted the previous owner who sold MI the car. He told me that three years ago when he sold the car to MI he told him that the frame was "weak"
on the passenger side near the door post. He suggested that I negotiate some type of adjustment with MI on the purchase price. The weak frame could explain why MI changed the door and hinges as well as replacing the floor pan on the passenger side after he bought the car. There is no way that MI could not have noticed the condition of the perimeter frame when he did this work.
I called MI and told him what this person had told me. again he got angry and hung up on me. Some 30 minutes later MI called me after talking with the other person and offered me a $500 refund. The refund MI said was conditional upon me not "bad mouthing" him to other club members. In other words hush money. I told him that I would take whatever he would send me
but that $500 was not enough to fix the problems. There are just to many bad areas on the perimeter frame. Some sections are completely missing.
I know some of you guys are great with framework but for me this is a parts car with a lot of parts already missing.
MI will no longer respond to my requests for an equitable solution to this problem.
If you know this guy and happen to see him at the national meet, please thank him for me for dumping his problem on me. If you don't know who this guy is but would like to, please e-mail me privately.
Hudsonly,
Brad Blaisdell
HET Dogwood Chapter
Wilmington North Carolina
http://www.classiccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5613
The transport driver who delivered the car to me in North Carolina told me that when he loaded up the car in Michigan, MI looked under it and stated
"this is the first good look I have had at this car" and " I hope he will still want the car". At this point MI should have stopped the shipment and called
me since the condition of the car was now found to be different than what he represented to me. He did not.
When the car arrived it was on the top rack of the transport. The driver and I looked it over and he then told me what MI had said. I e-mailed MI and told him that we had a problem. He called me and began yelling at me over the phone. I tried to reason with him but had no luck. I offered to e-mail pictures of the damage and he refused the idea. Despite promoting the car as having a "good frame" , he was now claiming that he knew very little about stepdown frames. Based on what the transport driver told me MI knew there was a problem when he shipped the car and I suspect long before that. MI himself told me that he looked under the car when it was up on the transport.
I contacted the previous owner who sold MI the car. He told me that three years ago when he sold the car to MI he told him that the frame was "weak"
on the passenger side near the door post. He suggested that I negotiate some type of adjustment with MI on the purchase price. The weak frame could explain why MI changed the door and hinges as well as replacing the floor pan on the passenger side after he bought the car. There is no way that MI could not have noticed the condition of the perimeter frame when he did this work.
I called MI and told him what this person had told me. again he got angry and hung up on me. Some 30 minutes later MI called me after talking with the other person and offered me a $500 refund. The refund MI said was conditional upon me not "bad mouthing" him to other club members. In other words hush money. I told him that I would take whatever he would send me
but that $500 was not enough to fix the problems. There are just to many bad areas on the perimeter frame. Some sections are completely missing.
I know some of you guys are great with framework but for me this is a parts car with a lot of parts already missing.
MI will no longer respond to my requests for an equitable solution to this problem.
If you know this guy and happen to see him at the national meet, please thank him for me for dumping his problem on me. If you don't know who this guy is but would like to, please e-mail me privately.
Hudsonly,
Brad Blaisdell
HET Dogwood Chapter
Wilmington North Carolina
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Comments
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I can vouch for Brad. The owner had told me the same thing when I was interested in it. Niels0
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You mean he told you the frame rails were bad?0
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Sorry to hear of your dilema.
Reminds me of an old saying, "Buyers are liars but sellers are worse"
If it were me, a complaint would already be filed with the MI State's Attorney's Office. Alternately, you can sue him for fraud in your state and he'll have to travel to you and hire an attorney there. Given the choice, who of us is interested in having to do this? Obversely, who of us is interested in getting screwed? As far as I'm concerned, you can mess with a man, but not with his wife or money. Go get'um.0 -
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The guy I bought my Pace from said there was only minor surface rust! ha You can stick a 2x4 through my frame rails!
Jay0 -
Then I guess he was wrong.nhp1127 wrote:No, he told me it had a good frame.0 -
Brad, I do believe I know who the individual you are talking about is. He has a bit of a reputation. In this hobby it's hard enough to go through the hassle of building and supporting your vehicle without blatant dishonesty. If he dosen't want to make restitution then he needs to leave the HET club .I would welcome what he has to say to be fair, but truthfully, Brad I've known you long enough to know that when you indicate the man is a cheat then something needs to be done to clear this up. If he is asked to leave it would not be the first time that that kind of action was taken to remove a dishonest member.0
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jsrail wrote:The guy I bought my Pace from said there was only minor surface rust! ha You can stick a 2x4 through my frame rails!
Jay
Jay, It had to be surface rust, cause the surface was all that was left!!
Seriously though, When I bought my 54 coupe, the guy told me it was running.
When I got to Atlanta to inspect it, the rear valance below the trunk lid was GONE..the interior was all there but was in the trunk and the front seat was where the back seat should have been, Both carbs leaked gas faster than I could have pumped it in at a station, and he had tried to start it on 12 volts so many times that the coil was shot. After renegotiating the price, I bought the car. Then I never did get a title from Him, Had to go the bill of sale and past registration route with the state.....took almost a year. Moral is Buyer beware, and if You are buying a car in the Atlanta area and the sellers initials are NPM make sure you get every scrap of paper on the car and do a thorough inspection. BEFORE ANY MONEY changes hands!
Bob0 -
Sorry to hear about your troubles as well - I hope you didn't get bit too hard in the pocketbook.
From what I have learned after buying my 49 Hudson - sight unseen, with only some random pictures - and with ALL the others stories on the forum I have witnessed over the last several years who have had similar experiences here’s what my thinking will be no matter what the owner says...
Negotiate as good of a price as possible but realize that when buying the car unseen - EXPECT it to show up rusty, and be DELIGHTED if it's not!0 -
I think the seller said the frame rails were solid on that 54, even in his posts.
If that were the case, I would print all of that out, and use it for evidence when you need to go after the guy.
I think you can find the post by doing a search for "54 Hornet for sale" and should be able to come up with it. Unless someone already "found" it...0 -
hudsonkid wrote:I think the seller said the frame rails were solid on that 54, even in his posts.
If that were the case, I would print all of that out, and use it for evidence when you need to go after the guy.
I think you can find the post by doing a search for "54 Hornet for sale" and should be able to come up with it. Unless someone already "found" it...
Good catch, busted!0 -
nothing worse than dishonesty....
plain and simple.
One thing we should be able to count on in the Hudson community is the honesty of it's members. If you don't like that, then maybe you don't belong here.
From what I understand the car was being sold on the premise of having a "good frame" sounds like the eventual buyer found that not to be the case.
I would let an attorney decide. I think it would be terrific to make someone come to court in my state, especially if they needed to travel, and it was based solely on the premise of misrepresentation. I would make their life "difficult" if they were resorting th the antics of "hanging" up the phone, and trying to bribe me with money to keep quiet.
All I got to say, is "if" the original for sale thread seems to appear, it would be nice to "keep" it towards the top, if not for a while. Funny how typing on a faceless entity such as the internet can say volumes...0 -
Of course I feel people should be honest - it's just really a Cr.. Shoot when you don't see the car - nor know the seller personally. (I love the new swear editor guys! I wonder...is there a spel chechr too? &*%%it! I guess not yet...:D )rambos_ride wrote:Sorry to hear about your troubles as well - I hope you didn't get bit too hard in the pocketbook.
From what I have learned after buying my 49 Hudson - sight unseen, with only some random pictures - and with ALL the others stories on the forum I have witnessed over the last several years who have had similar experiences here’s what my thinking will be no matter what the owner says...
Negotiate as good of a price as possible but realize that when buying the car unseen - EXPECT it to show up rusty, and be DELIGHTED if it's not!
And most sellers just don't really know the extent of rust problems that can creep up on these unibody (monobilt) style of Hudson.
What's crazy and a testimate to Hudson construction is that if you take a 1948 Hudson Coupe against a 1968 <Insert Any 1968 Unibody Muscle Car Here>
I would bet 7 out of 10 Hudsons would be in better overall shape rust wise than their 60's counter parts (and weigh-in less too!)0 -
I would agree with you on the fact that it is a buyer beware situation out there, but let's face the facts... Obviously the guy who sold the hudson is a hudson collector/owner, and knows what issues there are with these cars. He also stated that the frame was good, mentioning this alone obviously shows he knew enough that this was a problem area with stepdown hudsons.
Ultimately, though, for the price, the car seems to still be a good deal, considering the current hudson market, unless of course the car is completely gone, then, it might not be sucha great deal. Also, keep in mind 54's don't ave the easy to access rear perimeter frame area that 48-53's do...0 -
If this was an honest mistake then why was there subterfuge? In all fairness sometime we don't know the total condition of the car if we haven't had it that long .In that case OK honest mistake ,lets make good on some sort of restitution. This was NOT the case here, it was blatant dishonesty. Regardless if the car is salvageable or not. That's another case. It well may be but the man sold this vehicle under a deceit pure and simple.0
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I e-mailed MI yesterday to let him know that I had posted the details of our transaction. I also asked him why he didn't send the extra set of tailights with the car as he had promised. No response on that e-mail either. Perhaps he is hiding in Saddam Hussein's old spot.
In the event that he resurfaces and decides to do the right thing does anyone have a suggestion for a remedy to this mess ?
One last question. Those of you who responded with stories of your own, did you go after those who did you wrong or just let it slide?
Brad0 -
Contact the officers of the HET, and show all the evidence. Let them make the call.0
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blaiser wrote:
In the event that he resurfaces and decides to do the right thing does anyone have a suggestion for a remedy to this mess ?
Brad
I suggest trying to sell the car to someone who wants it for what it is. If the "runs and shifts good" part of the original post is true, then I would imagine that someone out there with good metal skills would love to have a 2 door Hornet for $2600.00.0 -
When I bought my '50 Pacemaker and subseqyently found major frame rot, I let it slide. The condition of the rest of the car was in such good shape that I wouldn't have been able to get the work done cheaper than I paid for the car, so I figured I got a good deal.....not a great deal, but an okay deal. I did buy it sight unseen and should have flown out east to look at it. The guy I bought it from was not a "hudsonite" and now collects old phonograph records as a hobby. I would think a "hudsonite" guy should be held to a high standard as they should know about these cars. I agree with Nevada Hudson's suggestion above.
Best of luck and I hope you find a satisfactory resolution to your situation.
Jay0 -
I think you will find that the officers of HET will tell you its a private transaction and there is nothing they can do about. Remember this a club not a governing body for mediating Hudson disputes. The only thing they can do is toss the guy out of the club.
Blaiser, now that you guys both have your backs up I don't think you will get a result that pleases you. The guy said the frame rails were good when you now know they were bad. He could have told you that up front and you could have made your mind up to leave the deal. If he had said that and sold it for 2 grand someone with the skills could have picked it up because if you can do the work a running 54 even with frame rot is worth 2k.0 -
The car is certainly available for sale. If I had known the true condition of the car I would have passed on it.
But let's say I do sell for $2000 to someone with the skills to handle the bad frame I would still be out $1275 because of a club member who lacks honesty and integrity. I don't think I am willing to take that kind of a beating. I am definately for tossing this guy out of the club and I am not willing to let this slide.
At a minimum I would think that whatever I sell the car for, MI should be responsible to make up the difference and because of his dishonesty and I hold him responsible for the shipping bill.
Brad0 -
[The officers of the club do not have to be a governing body, but if we have a dishonest member, well goodby! QUOTE=51hornetA]I think you will find that the officers of HET will tell you its a private transaction and there is nothing they can do about. Remember this a club not a governing body for mediating Hudson disputes. The only thing they can do is toss the guy out of the club.
Blaiser, now that you guys both have your backs up I don't think you will get a result that pleases you. The guy said the frame rails were good when you now know they were bad. He could have told you that up front and you could have made your mind up to leave the deal. If he had said that and sold it for 2 grand someone with the skills could have picked it up because if you can do the work a running 54 even with frame rot is worth 2k.[/QUOTE]0 -
My 20 cents worth
If you are unable to negotiate with the vendor, the next step is to gather up all your information and talk to a lawyer. He/she will be able to write a letter of demand on your behalf, and will detail to the vendor the civil/criminal proceedings that the vendor has left himself open to.
It is unpalatable to have spend money to resolve a situation that is none of your making. But while a vendor can readily fob off an unhappy client, they cannot so readily fob off the legal system.0 -
Hopefully, you got the transport driver's name and address. I believe if the driver was to send you a notorized affidavit, saying what MI had said about the frame, and you were to send MI a copy of the affidavit, you would probably be able to just get all your money back, and have MI pay for the transporting of the "rust bucket" back to him. Because , if everything is like you say, that's probably what a judge would award you. That is, if the judge doesn't think this would fall under "criminal offense". Then, I'd hate to be MI. Especially if the judge happens to be a car collector! (ha)0
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The most difficult part about these transactions (from real world experience) is that the vast majority of these cases, if litigated are small claims court actions. Here, small claims court handles up to $5,000 so you won't be getting any attorney's fees in the judgement if you win.
Also, contrary to other posts on this thread, you will have to sue him in his domicile probably. That means that you will be out the time and money to travel to his neck of the woods. If you do file and win, you will have a judgement that is enforceable countrywide though. Attach wages, lien a house, whatever you need to do to collect.
I'm not saying to let it slide, but that the court system may be difficult to utilize for your satisfaction. Sometimes it's the point of the matter and the monetary costs are secondary though. Good luck, hope you get satisfaction!!0 -
If you have a problem with a product, service or individual, why would you travel to the state of the defendant to file suit? For example, do you think that if you had a problem with a car manufactured in Tokyo that required litigation to resolve, you'd have to travel to Japan to sue the company? Doesn't work that way. Anyway, but especially if the car in question was advertised to you and negotiated in the media, you would be able to file a complaint with the State's Attorney office in the state in which the seller lives. Interstate and Internet fraud, regardless of the dollar amount or stature of parties involved, is not taken lightly. I've had real world experience and believe me, State's Attorney's Offices do the job, all at no cost to you. Keep this in mind if you have the slightest problem with an out of state parts supplier or dishonest eBayer. Also, you don't need an attorney to file in your local small claims court. Just fill out the form they give you and pay the filing fee. They do the rest.0
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All the legal ramifications for the resolving of this matter are well and good but a message needs to be sent to others that may be contemplating such a stunt. DON'T! If this individual is in the HET club then let's politely { or not} tell him to move on. It gives everyone who sells cars or parts a bad name. Brad is an honest and decent guy who has bought plenty of cars from people across the country. The people in the HET club need to be made avare of who this individual is if he will not make good on restitution-which is justifiably deserved.0
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Brad, check your Private Messages.
Wes0 -
At the expense of critic, I will wade into the swamp.
This thread had touched on several areas that are without doubt unrelated to the facts of the event(s) that have precipitated the subsequent postings. While I do not speak for the HET CLUB, I am sure that the membership of the seller, buyer or any other interested part has nothing to do with this deal. The car in question was represented by others to this forum and in that representation I do not believe there were any inducements to purchase. In every transaction there are good and bad attributes... the fact a Hudson is a unit body vehicle is lost on many folks. How to inspect for and determine the suitability of a Stepdown Hudson frame has been the topic of many threads posted here in the past. In my experience I have seen the obviously rusted to the subtlety rusted examples. I have hosted several folks who were attempting to find out what to look for and how to inspect candidate vehicles. Last year one man traveled from New Hampshire on business and came to my home to inspect my rust free 53 Wasp. He asked if I could place the vehicle on jack stands and allow him to use a creeper to inspect the underside and take pictures. This event proceeded a trip he was making to inspect a high dollar restored sedan. Previous to his inspection of my Wasp, he had no experience with Hudson frame inspection. The next afternoon this same person called me and thanked me for allowing him to see my car. The car he went to see was beautifully restored inside and out... the under side of the car's frame was rusted to the point it he was able to see the damage. What is the point... in every transaction, the buyer and seller have a duty one another to disclose and inspect as necessary to satisfy each other's need. Failure to complete these two activities will usually lead to disappointment.
Inspect a Hudson before you purchase... the outcome will be as you desire.
Caveat Emptor
Caveat emptor is Latin for "let the buyer beware".
Before statutory law, the buyer had no warranty of the quality of goods. In many jurisdictions, the law now requires that goods must be of "merchantable quality". However, this implied warranty can be difficult to enforce, and may not apply to all products. Hence, buyers are still advised to be cautious.
In addition to the quality of the merchandise, this phrase also applies to the return policy. In most jurisdictions, there is no legal requirement for the vendor to provide a refund or exchange. In many cases, the vendor will not provide a refund but will provide a credit. In the case of software, movies and other copyrighted material many vendors will only do a direct exchange for another copy of the exact same title. Most stores require proof of purchase and impose time limits on exchanges or refunds; however, some larger chain stores will do exchanges or refunds at any time with or without proof of purchase.
Happier days are ahead.:)0 -
the moral of the story is buy CALIFORNIA RUST FREE HUDSONS, BILL ALBRIGHT0
This discussion has been closed.
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