28 Hudson Help!

Unknown · July 2006

To all Super Six Experts out there:

I've recently inherited a 28 Hudson Murphy Bodied Landau Sedan.

My Father restored it about 30 years ago and it's run great all these years -up intil the day my dad died last year. We drove it in his funeral procession, then the next time we drove it, some four months later, it started acting up.

It acted like it was loading up, so I pulled the carb cover off and ran it to see if it was flooding, which it wasn't. Later, my Uncle, also a Hudson restorer and retired Service station owner, cleaned out the entire fuel system and checked the operation of the vacuum tank, etc. It seemed to run better, so they drove it to a local car show. On the way, it got so sensitive, that they had to keep the choke almost completely out and it would only go about 35 mph. This led us to believe it was now running lean. The car sat over the winter, then I played with it some more a couple of weeks ago, with the help of my uncle. When I got back at it, it wouldn't run unless I kept it at 1/3 throttle, and it ran really rough, as though flooding again. I pulled the carb cover again, no flooding evident, although all but the inner two spark plugs were wet.

I turned in the bottom fuel mixture wheel all the way, turned out the air adjustment almost all the way and it barely made any improvement. Where is the fuel coming from now? I would've thought it would've starved itself of fuel under this carb setting.

We checked out the carb, which is really clean (and simple), so we are starting to believe it might be the heat control pipe in the intake. Time didn't permit us to tear it down to check it, so I had to stop there.

What makes matters more difficult, is that the car is 100 miles away from where I live, so I thought I'd check this forum until I can get back up there to work on it again.

Can anyone help?

mars55 · July 2006

Here are a couple of threads you might find useful.

http://www.classiccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3561&highlight=vacuum+tank

http://www.classiccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5447&highlight=vacuum+tank

Jon B · July 2006

I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble with the Hudson. If you don't get a satisfactory answer at this forum, you might try posting your question on the Super Six Forum at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HudsonSuperSix16-29/ . I believe this requires a simple registration in order to get posting privileges.

I'm not a '28 expert by any means, but I'm wondering if the problem is indeed fuel-related? Could there be an intake manifold leak, or even an ignition problem? It sounds like you've covered most of your bases regarding the fuel system.

Geoff · July 2006

The problem will most likely be a hole in the heat tube, causing exhaust gas to enter the intake. You will need to replace this with a thin stainless pipe.

Geoff.

Unknown · July 2006

Thank you all for your input!
I've checked out the links and found some useful info.
(For the record, it's getting good spark, so I believe I can rule out ignition.)
Based on the response so far, it's starting to look even more like the problem lies in the intake heat tube. Has anyone ever experienced problems with this feature?
I do know that even when the car was runing fine, no matter where I set the lever, it made no difference in the way the car runs. Does that further indicate a problem with it? In other words, does it work correctly on someone's car to where it does make a difference?
My Dad had a damaged one in storage, so I was able to see how it's constructed; a relatively thick (if memory serves, roughly 1/8" wall thickness, 2" o.d.) steel tube pressed into the intake casting. Based on looking at it, I'd be reluctant to try to press the old one out and a new one in without damaging the casting.

Geoff-
You suggested replacing it with a thin stainless pipe. Is this after pressing the old one out, or sliding it inside? It sounds like you may have some experience with this. Anything I should know before I tear it down?

The alternative would be to find a replacement intake manifold, if that's even possible! So if anyone knows where I could find one, I'd appreciate suggestions. Of course I'll need to confirm the diagnosis first. Hopefully that'll be soon.

Geoff · July 2006

You need to remove the old pipe first. And it needs to be a thin wall pipe otherwise you upset the volumetric flow and can lead to problems with spitting back through the carb. You don't actually need any heat in here if you live in a warm or temperate climate, but if you get a lot of cold weather it is probably best to leave the heat exchange connected. I have disconnected it on my car with no problems. Just make a stainless plate to go over the manifold flange, and block off the by-pass pipe. With todays highly volatile fuel it can lead to vapourisation problems with too much heat. You can leave the levers etc in place if you want it to look authentic. Make sure you have the rear butterfly wedged right open, or remove the housing altogether and extend the pipe up to the manifold flange with a new mating flange. Good luck, and get back to me if you need any further help. I have driven '29 Hudson since the first rebuild in '71, and have rebuilt 2, and serviced many others.

Geoff.

Unknown · July 2006

Geoff-
Thanks for elaborating. It sounds like it might be a good idea to just block it off- that setup might even make it run better in parades & such. It never gets driven in cold weather anyway.
I took Jon B's advice and signed up for the Yahoo Group - that's a great site, too. And I see you are highly regarded on that site as well.

Hopefully I'll be able to get to it soon, and I'll let you all know how it turned out.

By the way- does anyone know where to get ahold of any parts for the '28?
Thanks.

Unknown · July 2006

Sir,

My name is Dany Spring, and my Dad, Perry also has a Murphy bodied Hudson. Any chance you and he could exchange photos to compare cars?

Unknown · July 2006

springspeeddemon wrote:

Sir,
My name is Dany Spring, and my Dad, Perry also has a Murphy bodied Hudson. Any chance you and he could exchange photos to compare cars?

Mr Spring-
Thanks for the note - it's always fun to talk with a fellow Hudsoner - especially one so similar. I don't currently have any photos other than the one in my avatar above... I'll try attaching the larger version.
I'm planning on taking more shots next time I'm up north. Do you have any of your Dad's car?
Let me know how you want to go about exchanging photos and I'll try to ablige as soon as I can.

Geoff · July 2006

28HudsonMurphy wrote:

Mr Spring-

Thanks for the note - it's always fun to talk with a fellow Hudsoner - especially one so similar. I don't currently have any photos other than the one in my avatar above... I'll try attaching the larger version.

I'm planning on taking more shots next time I'm up north. Do you have any of your Dad's car?

Let me know how you want to go about exchanging photos and I'll try to ablige as soon as I can.

Nice looking car. Just a technical point, these cars are Murphy (Pasadena) designed, but apart from the prototypes, they were all built by Biddle & smart, Amesbury, Mass.

Geoff.

Unknown · July 2006

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

Nice looking car. Just a technical point, these cars are Murphy (Pasadena) designed, but apart from the prototypes, they were all built by Biddle & smart, Amesbury, Mass.
Geoff.

Thanks Geoff-
Point taken. I appreciate your input.

Since you're online, I'd like your opinion about my problem. I assume you've seen the posting on the yahoogroup from "bimorph" about the possibility of it being something with the float or needle valve in the vacuum tank. Does this sound like a possibility? If you recall, part of my problem seems to be flooding, based on the wet spark plugs and the fact that I shut the fuel adjusting wheel right down and it still ran...
Could I have both problems, where it runs rich at idle and lean at speed?
When I do get back to work on it, I thought I'd try the simpler fix first.
The only thing that makes me doubt the vacuum pump is the problem is the fact that my Dad put a new pump on it about 3 years ago, and my uncle cleaned it out last year.
Would the heat control tube cause the rich condition?

Unknown · July 2006

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

Nice looking car. Just a technical point, these cars are Murphy (Pasadena) designed, but apart from the prototypes, they were all built by Biddle & smart, Amesbury, Mass.

Geoff.

True indeed, Geoff,

Dad's is one of the prototypes. It will be interesting to compare the dissimilarities.

I will gather some pictures, and post them somewhere for all to see. In the meantime there is one in the newest WTN.

Dany

Geoff · July 2006

28HudsonMurphy wrote:

Thanks Geoff-

Point taken. I appreciate your input.

Since you're online, I'd like your opinion about my problem. I assume you've seen the posting on the yahoogroup from "bimorph" about the possibility of it being something with the float or needle valve in the vacuum tank. Does this sound like a possibility? If you recall, part of my problem seems to be flooding, based on the wet spark plugs and the fact that I shut the fuel adjusting wheel right down and it still ran...

Could I have both problems, where it runs rich at idle and lean at speed?

When I do get back to work on it, I thought I'd try the simpler fix first.

The only thing that makes me doubt the vacuum pump is the problem is the fact that my Dad put a new pump on it about 3 years ago, and my uncle cleaned it out last year.

Would the heat control tube cause the rich condition?

I have posted on the HSS group re this, but briefly, yes, it could indeed be the vacuum tank float full of gas and not shutting off the valve, allowing raw fuel into the carb.

Geoff.

Unknown · August 2006

Hello All-
Well, I got the opportunity to work on the '28 this weekend....
Checked the vac tank float first, found out it indeed had a pinhole
in it, so I replaced it with a good used one.
Then, took it out to road test it and it quit on me - same symptoms
as before, except using the choke didn't help.
When I got it home, I proceeded to dismantle the intake to check for
any holes in the heat tube.
What I found was the tube had already been replaced with the
thinwall stainless sleeve as Geoff described. What was a little
peculiar, though, was that the return tube near the exit of the
exhaust mainfold had been blocked off, while the port at the top of
the exh. man. was left open, which allowed exhaust gas to enter the
chamber but not exit. When I removed the intake, it drained some
dark water, as could be expected. Luckily, there was no damage to
the tube or casting, so I proceeded to block off the opening with a
plate. When I got it back together, it was still difficult to start,
and once I did get it running, it was still not very smooth.
I still wanted to see if it made any improvement in drivability, and
after about a mile on the road, it quit as I was turning around,
never to start again.
Obviously, what I am doing is not improving matters, and I am
wondering if it's a combination of things. I know that it's possible
that since I re-used the gaskets on the intake/carb it could be part
of the rough running, even though they looked fine. The exhaust port
that I put the plate onto wouldn't seal very well (even though I had
a new gasket for it) but that wouldn't cause it to run rough and
stall. I may have to have the flanges machined, but if there's any
kind of liquid gasket that works I might try that first. My uncle
had mentioned that Dad had talked about replacing the timing chain a
few years back, and even had it adjusted all the way tight. Does
this sound like a possible cause? Is there any way to test the
theory before tearing it down? I tried messing with the retard lever
and it didn't help.
One other thing I wondered about is a head gasket because of a
constant miss which fluctuates in intensity, and there's a constant
stream of blue/white smoke from the tail pipe. Dad had the pistons
replaced about 4,000 miles ago, so I don't believe it's the rings.
With all of the symptoms I'm experiencing, it sounds like I really
have my work cut out for me.
Does anyone know how to replace a timing chain, or where to locate
one?

28 Hudson Help!

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