California Folks Hide Your Old Cars !!!!
Because the California Government is coming to crush them. I was watching a morning news channel here in Southern California and the left wing government that runs this state is going to be the first state (And Only) in the WORLD Yes I said WORLD to be the first to implement laws to clear global warming. Check this out, The person asked one of the left wing people what about the companies that will get out of California because of this. Her answer was, there are alot of companies supporting this bill and one of them called PG&E supports this. LMAO. Pacific Gas & Electric is a public utility. I would like to see them pack up there poles, transformers and wire and move out of this state. I was born and raised here and I like it here but this government is self- flushing this state down the toilet. There is much more going on here but that's for another board. LOL. Maybe I will be Arizona bound. Its hotter then hell there but it's a DRY hell ??!!
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saw your statement on the new bill introed in Sacremento.Sounds like the one suggested some years ago.Follow the money! Left wing or right wing ,it doesn't matter. The corporations can trade off "polution credits" to avoid cleaning up their own mess,But this time the enemy has a right wing ally in the Govenors Mansion,i.e. Arnold instead of Gray(Davis).Arizona in a short time usually follows California with legislation,but is more responsive to hobbiest interests.We just completed a new regulation on repairing of vehicles on residential property which is very Hobbiest friendly in Pima Co.Ron(Tucson)0
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Arizona still has the "ol' wild west", buck the system kind of thing going for car and motorcycle folks, which I do like. Just wish they'd go a lot more "left" on their child protection laws!0
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For the benefit of all of us in the other 49 states, could you elaborate on your statement about the government coming to crush your cars? What precisely is the law of which you speak? The rest of us are clueless about what is happening in Sacramento. Instead of throwing around vague political terms, could you state what the law is that you speak of, how it affects antique car owners, and (assuming it unfairly targets us) how we might oppose this or similar laws?0
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Uh, the Governator may be nominally Republican, but he is NOT right-wing. I wish I could say he were.0
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California may have a RINO governor, but the rest of the State House and Senate is about as moonbatty Left as it gets. The Republik of Kalifornia is about as unfriendly as it gets anymore - unless you're illegal, then it's all good.0
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66patrick66 wrote:California may have a RINO governor, but the rest of the State House and Senate is about as moonbatty Left as it gets. The Republik of Kalifornia is about as unfriendly as it gets anymore - unless you're illegal, then it's all good.
If there's any old car-unfriendly legislation coming up you should sharpen your pencils and fire off some letters to the state legislature. Right wing or Left wing or anywhere in between it doesn't matter if it effects our favorite hobby. The two main organizations that keep tabs on such legislation is SEMA and COVA/CVAG.... which really every car enthusiast should join or support when letter writing campaigns are neccesary.
Basically as far as cars are concerned the state considers driving...and arguable owning...a car as a prvilage rather than a right so all states feel they can write laws to tell you what you can and can't do where it concerns cars even though you may own it. You sort of don't have many rights when you're driving, the motor vehicle codes are as big as phone books and if an officer wants he can find areson to pull you over or hassle you.
Plus we've all heard the horror stories of other hobbists when some nosey or irate neighbor gives a hobbist hell for having old cars on his property. Point is we do have to be vigilant.
Some legislator think's he/she is helping the environment by getting rid of junky old cars even though such cars are not driven that much and make up a fraction of a percent of all cars currently on the road...why? So the legislator can appear as if he/she doing something about the environment by attacking a weak and easy target without much political clout.0 -
I know the names, phone numbers, and email addresses of all of my local officials, State reps and Senators, plus my Congressional members. AND, I communicate with mine on a frequent and regular basis. You boys and girls out there in LA-La Land should be doing the same.0
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66patrick66 wrote:I know the names, phone numbers, and email addresses of all of my local officials, State reps and Senators, plus my Congressional members. AND, I communicate with mine on a frequent and regular basis. You boys and girls out there in LA-La Land should be doing the same.
I agree. Sitting back and not speaking up on things that impact your life is dangerous. However, I doubt that the livelihoods at stake (SEMA, parts sellers and reproducers, restoration shops, wrecking yards, etc.) and the volume of taxable revenue they generate will go the way of the Dodo. Ultimately, the schemes of governmental dreamers and dogooders are thwarted by the almightly dollar.0 -
No one has yet explained what the new laws do or require. I'm interested in hearing what it says.0
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I don't want to get too political here, but the door has been open so to speak. (Perhaps you'll want to skip to my Hudson question)
Aaron D. IL wrote:
Basically as far as cars are concerned the state considers driving...and arguable owning...a car as a prvilage rather than a right so all states feel they can write laws to tell you what you can and can't do where it concerns cars even though you may own it. You sort of don't have many rights when you're driving, the motor vehicle codes are as big as phone books and if an officer wants he can find areson to pull you over or hassle you.
Plus we've all heard the horror stories of other hobbists when some nosey or irate neighbor gives a hobbist hell for having old cars on his property. Point is we do have to be vigilant.
Now, is that “wacky left†or “law and order right� Add elements like the prison guards union, law and order get tough politics, and it seems to me that “big government†is right wing, not left. Sure, there are no smoking laws, but the left is unlikely to send you to Guantanamo for it. An overzealous cop can impound your Hudson, or worse.
As far as unfriendly (to business?) is concerned, I have just one thing to say; “5th largest economy on the planetâ€. Given that taxes levied from the robust economies of Blue States fund infrastructure programs in the on average poorer Red States, the conservatives might consider not bighting the hand that feeds them! It's easy to be a "business friendly" low tax state if CA is helping to build your roads and house your prisoners.
Follow the money.
<end rant>
Now, on to my Hudson.... :-)
http://moltar.chrishull.com/pics/HudsonMaaco/1Sept2006/RearLewft1.jpg
I need a pic of a spot light mounted on the driver's side. Where does the handle enter the car exactlly. Do I have to drill a hole in the dash, or does it typically come in over the dash? How far up the pillar on the outside should I drill? (I'll post to a new topic)
Thanks;
-Chris0 -
Chris,
At the risk of further turning this thread into a political rant, you are absolutely right and spoken well.
Does the Cali legislature have a website where you can view pending legislation? I know the AL and NC (two states that I frequent) both do. Perhaps someone (maybe me, but I don't live in CA) should mosey over there and read the text and see what's going on. If you find out, post here and let's pick it apart like a bunch of vultures!
Politics is something that I deal with on a daily basis on an academic level. I have looked at quite a bit of legislation, either proposed or completely passed, that has to do with old cars, and I can say that they come from both sides of the political fence. Recently, here in Birmingham, county-level legislation was being considered to institute emissions testing with very little exemption for older cars. This was aut****d, sponsored, and pushed by a group of Republican county commissioners, so I think it works both ways. In the end it did NOT pass, because it wouldn't fly with our county demographics. It was simply a tax on poor people with older cars on the road.
In looking at the origins of some of this malarchy, it seems that Democrats often shout "lower emissions" and "cleaner environment" (and rightly so) and this puts Republicans in a position. How do you clean up the environment without biting the petroleum-soaked hand that feeds you? Hmm.... We are only left to go after the sectors that don't contribute to our campaigns, such as OLD CARS. Now, this is not to say that some overzealous Democrats don't encourage similar legislation. However I think that if you'll look, Democrats are typically pointing the finger at oil companies and big business and not at people driving their vehicles.
It has been said: The Definition of "Politics" is when two or more people disagree about how to do the same thing.
Best Regards,0 -
Okay, my previous post was a calm analysis of political and geopolitical forces at work in relation to our hobby as old car enthusiasts. This time though, I'm actually upset about something. This forum has gotten in the way of my first amendment rights of free expression. If you look at my above post, I used the word A U T H O R E D. IF you notice, it bleeped out H O R E. OKAY! First of all, if you are referring to a prostitute, the correct spelling is W H O R E, not H O R E. So if you're going to infringe on the first amendment, at least learn how to SPELL!
I see a parallel to our previous topic. What is the genesis of this? Is it left-wing censorship, or Right-Wing Religous Fundamentalism? If it is left-wing censorship, then the only justification for it is if this forum is frequented by children, which I do not believe that it is. Of course, I don't see a problem with W H O R E even so. If it's right-wing fundamentalism at work, then we have a case here of "if you don't like something, deny that it exists."
Furthermore, as far as I am concerned, the word W H O R E, no matter how you spell it, is NOT profanity, it is indeed the oldest profession in existence. What does Webster have to say on the subject?
Bear in mind, the word I attempted to type was A U T H O R E D.
Best Regards,0 -
First, we're getting a bit astray of the original direction of the thread, which was to object to a particular law (apparently) which has been passed in California, which may be of interest to antique car owners, but which has yet to be explained in this thread. So please, let's try to keep to the issues here and not get political rants involved.
Second, there is indeed some strange sort of electronic censorship device attached to this website that needs fine-tuning. At the website the other day, I tried to use the word 'accumulate' and part of it was bleeped out. Go figure. I have advised Classiccars of this problem, and hope they can fix it.0 -
First of all, no matter how this thread is titled, in reading the posts you will quickly discern that the topic at hand is not this law in California, because at this point we have absolutely no information about it. It is merely a general discussion pertaining to old-car-unfriendly legislation, and the political forces and factions responsible for its genesis.
If reliable information becomes available pertaining to this law in California, then that may change. Until then it is merely general discussion on a topic.
Secondly, thank you for the advice regarding automated forum censorship. Joe Lieberman would be proud. I am glad to hear that you e-mailed the powers that be and I too hope it can be resolved. Constitutional law happens to be one of my focus areas and I am having free expression withdrawals.0 -
jamcoats wrote:Chris,
At the risk of further turning this thread into a political rant, you are absolutely right and spoken well....
It has been said: The Definition of "Politics" is when two or more people disagree about how to do the same thing.
Best Regards,
What a well thought out response, thank you.
The legislation has only been in the news a couple of weeks, and I really need to educate myself on it. But I find "They're coming to crush our cars" about as sane as "Bush = Hitler" or "the war on terror = WWII".
Balancing rights requires people of good will to see the other side. Is my Hudson polluting someone elses' air? How badly? It's a fair question, but I rather doubt a well balanced answer involves crushing anything.
Electronic ingition anybody? :-)
-Chris0 -
I must either really have nothing to do or love the law, or both. I am happy to announce that I have found the text of this bill, Assembly Bill AB 32, which is entitled the "CALIFORNIA GLOBAL WARMING SOLUTIONS ACT OF 2006". I am in the process of printing, reading, and analyzing it and once I get down to the meat of what's going on I will post a summary. If you'd like to mosey over to the CA legislature's website legislature.ca.gov and look for yourself then knock yourself out, but it's quite voluminous and I'll have a summary available shortly.
EDIT: This is not a proposed bill. It has been PASSED, in the Senate August 30 and the Assembly August 31.
And for the record, I don't have my Juris Doctor yet, but I'm working on it.
Best Regards,0 -
jamcoats wrote:
Secondly, thank you for the advice regarding automated forum censorship. Joe Lieberman would be proud. I am glad to hear that you e-mailed the powers that be and I too hope it can be resolved. Constitutional law happens to be one of my focus areas and I am having free expression withdrawals.
Hear hear!
This is one of those situations where one must ask "who is being protected". I can see who is being hurt.
-Chris0 -
Given Governor "Terminator" is a RINO (republican in name only) and has chucked the rolling 30 year smog exemption program for older cars last year....a bill that was signed into law by former liberal Governor Gray Davis, the far left environmental agenda is moving forward unopposed here in California.
However, the cars likely to be crushed in this program are “Toyota’s, Honda’s, and other sorted domestic and imported junk.†These cars come from “turn-in†programs like “donate your car or truck to the children’s home for a tax credit†or whatever cause of the day that is being promoted. These charities make their bucks from selling pollution credits gained from crushing junk.
It’s not likely that when cleaning out the barn, that Betty calls one of these charities to haul off her Dad’s old “47 Buickâ€. That’s what eBay is for…LOL.
Anyway, I would encourage California residents to call or write the Governors office and make your voice heard….it won’t help….but at least you have done your part. This one is a done deal!
You can go to: http://www.govmail.ca.gov/
OR Snail Mail:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
Phone: 916-445-2841
Fax: 916-445-4633
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admin wrote:Given Governor "Terminator" is a RINO (republican in name only) and has chucked the rolling 30 year smog exemption program for older cars last year....a bill that was signed into law by former liberal Governor Gray Davis, the far left environmental agenda is moving forward unopposed here in California.
So if classic cars have to pass smog, what does that actually mean? My SUV has to be smogged in order to get registration, but it certainly pollutes more than a car.
Are there multiple definitions for "passing"? How difficult is it to comply? Is an old car allowed to pollute as much as an SUV? On the other side, do classic cars really cause that much pollution overall? Any numbers?
I remember the days when it hurt to breath in the San Fernando Valley when I was a kid. Then that liberal Nixon passed clean air legislation. We all had to give up our cars because the auto manufacturers were right, it cost too much to equip them with smog devices (NOT).
=balance=
-Chris0 -
Ron P wrote:Because the California Government is coming to crush them. I was watching a morning news channel here in Southern California and the left wing government that runs this state is going to be the first state (And Only) in the WORLD Yes I said WORLD to be the first to implement laws to clear global warming. Check this out, The person asked one of the left wing people what about the companies that will get out of California because of this. Her answer was, there are alot of companies supporting this bill and one of them called PG&E supports this. LMAO. Pacific Gas & Electric is a public utility. I would like to see them pack up there poles, transformers and wire and move out of this state. I was born and raised here and I like it here but this government is self- flushing this state down the toilet. There is much more going on here but that's for another board. LOL. Maybe I will be Arizona bound. Its hotter then hell there but it's a DRY hell ??!!
Thats not really new news around here in wyoming they have been on the cleaning up bit for awhile now. Go some place around here and try to get an old car or parts none to be had either been crushed or sold tryng to beatify america or clean up the crap so called by some good stuff considered to others. I was going to say something about Bills Albright place hard to say somebody hasent said something see what looks like apartments or commercial building around his place:rolleyes: grab all that you can some day places like these wont be around0 -
stffy64 wrote:Thats not really new news around here in wyoming they have been on the cleaning up bit for awhile now. Go some place around here and try to get an old car or parts none to be had either been crushed or sold tryng to beatify america or clean up the crap so called by some good stuff considered to others. I was going to say something about Bills Albright place hard to say somebody hasent said something see what looks like apartments or commercial building around his place:rolleyes: grab all that you can some day places like these wont be around
They just crushed everything inn the yard where Al and I got my donor Pace. Lots of old 40'3, 50's and 60's cars. And all Arizona cars! Sad to think of all that steel gone for good.0 -
jsrail wrote:They just crushed everything inn the yard where Al and I got my donor Pace. Lots of old 40'3, 50's and 60's cars. And all Arizona cars! Sad to think of all that steel gone for good.
Who is they? Bug govt showed up and "crushed everything in the yard"? Or did a property owner have a lot cleared? (Sounds like a shame either way). The latter falls under personal choice / property rights.
So in Wyoming the govt is showing up at folks houses and towing off cars to the crusher? If that's really true it sounds like an insane violation of property rights.
-Chris0 -
usgrant7 wrote:Who is they? Bug govt showed up and "crushed everything in the yard"? Or did a property owner have a lot cleared? (Sounds like a shame either way). The latter falls under personal choice / property rights.
So in Wyoming the govt is showing up at folks houses and towing off cars to the crusher? If that's really true it sounds like an insane violation of property rights.
-Chris
My bad! No, it was new property owners, just mentioning it because it was a sad waste of some good ol' cars, its not directly related to the government doing anything though.0 -
usgrant7 wrote:Who is they? Bug govt showed up and "crushed everything in the yard"? Or did a property owner have a lot cleared? (Sounds like a shame either way). The latter falls under personal choice / property rights.
So in Wyoming the govt is showing up at folks houses and towing off cars to the crusher? If that's really true it sounds like an insane violation of property rights.
-Chris
Alot of the time its is the city or county officals say clean things up and sometimes they bring the crusher too you in that case. They give to you in some cases time to clean things up if you dont and things are out of hand they come in and do it for you and charge you. Some of the places that i have seen look like a garbage pit they have everything know to man owned0 -
Many of these cars are parked in front of peoples houses, on their front lawns, etc. Looks like Tijuana. They deserve to be crushed. It's called common sense.0
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stffy64 wrote:Alot of the time its is the city or county officals say clean things up and sometimes they bring the crusher too you in that case. They give to you in some cases time to clean things up if you dont and things are out of hand they come in and do it for you and charge you. Some of the places that i have seen look like a garbage pit they have everything know to man owned
That doesn't sound good. "One man's garbage"... Eyesore laws are pretty damn iffy IMHO. Kind of like morality police.
A few years ago, the City of Mtn View (CA) stole an old (1988ish) car from me. The cop accross the st. didn't like it I'm guessing. The car was crap, but they charged me for taking it.
I guess big Govt is ok so long as it doesn't hurt big Biz.
-Chris0 -
It does appear that the media has gotten a few people riled up for no reason. Much ado about nothing, as usual.
I've got the text of the bill here, and I was planning on summarizing it in the form of a short article. But it seems that the California Legislature has spared me the effort, because at this point it simply has little bearing on us.
The goal, intent, and purpose of the legislation is to reduce the greenhouse gas emission levels in the state of California to their 1990 levels, by the year 2020. The bill requires the state air resources board (CARB) to "adopt regulations to require the reporting and verification of statewide greenhouse gas emissions" and to "monitor and enforce compliance with this program". These regulations are to be implemented in an "open public process to achieve the maximum technologically feasible and cost-effective greenhouse gas reductions", and there are many sections of the bill which call for open public forums to make these determinations, ranging from what exactly the emissions were in 1990 to how best get back to that level.
There is but one reference to vehicles, in Part 7 of the bill, "Miscellaneous Provisions". This reference simply states that if the regulations currently in CA Section 43018.5, which cover motor vehicle greenhouse gas emissions, do NOT remain in effect, that CARB shall implement alternative regulations pertaining to "mobile sources of greenhouse gas emissions".
In several places in the text of the bill, the Public Utilities Commission and electricity production are mentioned. It does appear that this will be one of CARB's primary targets in greenhouse gas reduction. This would explain the reference and comments by PG&E mentioned at the beginning of this thread.
This bill has broadened CARB's authority to implement greenhouse gas emissions regulations and standards, but not specifically pertaining to automobiles. Now, it is true, CARB can achieve part of this called-for greenhouse gas reduction by instituting stricter requirements on autmobiles, but that is not the intention of this bill specifically, and quite frankly this is something they have had the authority to do for some time now. Any new policies pertaining to automobiles will have to come down from CARB at a later time. I however, doubt very seriously that automobiles will be very affected: The targets of action here appear to be public utilities and large industry.
Should anything come down the pipe to affect automobiles, we will deal with that at that time. I can thankfully assure everyone that California's automobile-related special interests will get there long before any of us do, however.
Best Regards,0 -
jamcoats wrote:It does appear that the media has gotten a few people riled up for no reason. Much ado about nothing, as usual.
Thanks for the clearification, James.0 -
I don't agree that it's nothing to be concerned about.
"The bill requires the state air resources board (CARB) to "adopt regulations to require the reporting and verification of statewide greenhouse gas emissions" and to "monitor and enforce compliance with this program".
This means that the legislature is giving CARB an open-ended mandate to create regulations that have the force of law and also a means to beat people into compliance. Nothing good will come of this. Rant mode off.0 -
dwardo99, Perhaps you should examine the bill yourself.
I am not an expert on California law, and I have not examined specifically wherefrom CARB derives its authority and what the limits on it are. However regulatory authority, and the legal authority to enforce compliance with those regulations, have been within the scope of CARB's authority for some time now. See Health and Safety code 43018.5 for instance. This bill does not establish that; it has already been well established. See the Legislative Counsel's Digest, paragraph 2, which opens with "Under Existing Law...". If CARB wants to institute stricter requirements on automobiles or anything else, they have the authority to do so within certain restrictions, and have had that authority for years. But everything has its limits. CARB would for instance have the ability to regulate how much greenhouse gases are emitted from an automotive manufacturing process. They may establish guidelines for new vehicle emissions. However, for antique cars, regulations are in most cases ex post facto territory. Modifications are not constitutionally protected as ex post facto, that's why aftermarket accessories (such as MSD boxes) often come with a CARB exemption sticker. This is another topic entirely and one that we could banter about for weeks.
There is nothing directly affecting automobiles at this point, and the authority of CARB to do something of that nature has been established long before now. For purposes of this bill, new regulations must be determined in an "open public process". Anything pertaining to coming and getting your antique cars, or crushing them, or not allowing you to drive them, is NOT and could not simply stem from CARB policy, it would have to be codified legislation, and the extreme examples I just mentioned would be in violation of property rights.
Should CARB rattle the saber in regards to old cars, my ears will perk.
Best Regards,0
This discussion has been closed.
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