headlight problem
I took my 53 Hornet to a local show last night. On the way home after a bought 15 minutes driving with the lights on the lights the headlights started to rapidly go off and on I pulled over turned off the light switch as so to reset the circuit breaker. In another mile or so,same thing. I know that these cars have 2 circuit breakers one on the switch and one on the crossmember above the steering column.The switch terminal gets very hot(rear of switch that is )and the wiring is totally replaced when I restored the car 12 years ago so it is not likely that I have a short.My question is, is is normal for the headlight switch terminal to get so hot it will burn your finger? Is this due to a defective circuit breaker or is the breaker doing its job shutting down the lights? How can I tell which circuit breaker is at fault(if either). I am now checking for shorts or arcing and will do a amp test to see what my current draw is.If I need a new breaker ,where can I puchase one? Ron
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My '51 Hornet did the same thing last night. but only with the high beam on. Have to check and see if the Hudson emblem light wire has a bare spot again! Thats what happened before !0
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It may well be the switch itself. These rotary switches are rebuildable. Just take apart, repair any issues, clean and reassemble. I put a headlight relay in my '52 Wasp long ago when I had the same problem and eliminated the breaker under the dash (remember to use a fused relay!) and never had the problem again.0
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I just now tried a new switch and circuit breaker.It too, got very hot. My check of the amp draw is OK at 16.5 amps with out dash lights but the clock in line (Quartz convertion).Also dimmer switch is operating well.It seems that I will have to go to a relay,but I don't understand why all of a sudden this is happening???0
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Where did you get the relay? I think fifth ave. auto parts sells 'em but I'm not sure.0
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RonS wrote:I just now tried a new switch and circuit breaker.It too, got very hot. My check of the amp draw is OK at 16.5 amps with out dash lights but the clock in line (Quartz convertion).Also dimmer switch is operating well.It seems that I will have to go to a relay,but I don't understand why all of a sudden this is happening???
Changing the wiring harness is a very good restoration action. The fact that you changed the harness does not eliminate the reasons for the short or high resistance connection that is occurring in your lighting circuit. Corrosion, dirt build up, fuzz of all things and a variety of other maladies can and do cause the conditions you are describing. One point to think about is the problem is repeatable. Once you over heat the circuit breaker you risk it not working to it's original specifications same goes for the switch. Use the eye ball trouble shooting technique... examine everything... see if there is corrosion on the headlamp connections... behind the lamps, at the other connection points. Has some debris crossed the connections? Every Hudson headlight switch I have cleaned with BK or other fluid has disgorged lots of dirt and some fuzzy stuff. After 53 years of faithful service... maybe a bath is in order.
Relays are available on eBay. I have purchased 4 in the past year and they are NOS dual headlight relays meant for 6 volt use. 12 Volt relays are available ... good source for off the rack is a truck stop... check the clearance light section.
Good Luck0 -
Will a 12volt headlight relay work on a 6volt system?0
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Nevada Hudson wrote:Will a 12volt headlight relay work on a 6volt system?
No, my comment should have been better stated, the intent was to inform those who are using 12 volts of a quick source of these relays. Sorry for confussion.0 -
Yes, you can use a 12 volt circuit breaker. A circuit breaker is sensitive to current, not voltage. I have used them numerous times.0
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I believe the reply was about relays.
Using a 12 volt circuit breaker in place of the 6 volt circuit breaker MAY cause you a problem.
Ohms law is used to calculate the current processed by a circuit. That law is current is equal to voltage divided by the resistance, or represented by the formula I=E/R. Each circuits in the Hudson electrical system has a standard current rating. If the voltage is doubled and the resistance of the circuit is standard the current handling range of the circuit breaker will be reduced by half. Use the formual to calculate the rating you need for your curcuits.
Good Luck and Cheers.0 -
thanks Ken.Took the switch apart cleaned it and adjusted the contacts a bit better, also switched the circuit breaker(25 amp on the lite switch), put on the lights with my charger hooked up, and for 3 hours had no problem.I never realized the heat that 17 amps(all lights on)causes on those breakers.Does any on know where I can purchase good used or new curcuit breakers?0
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Check your local tractor supply house.0
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Replace the dimmer switch on the floor. All headlight current goes through this switch. High resistance in this switch will cause curcuit heating. Yes, a headlight relay will work wonders! It reduces the resistance throughout the circuit and greatly reduces the voltage drop to the headlights. It will convert 6V "darks" into "lights.0
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I second the motion for a relay. It sends electric power directly to the headlights. The miles of wiring and the headlight & dimmer switch, will then only serve the purpose of "signaling" the relay to do its task. This entails very low amperage and thus the whole system is under much less strain. The circuit breaker will never again 'break' nor the switch overheat.0
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Fred Connors wrote:Replace the dimmer switch on the floor. All headlight current goes through this switch. High resistance in this switch will cause curcuit heating. Yes, a headlight relay will work wonders! It reduces the resistance throughout the circuit and greatly reduces the voltage drop to the headlights. It will convert 6V "darks" into "lights."
Ditto. Replace the dimmer switch. These things, when corroded, can wreak all kinds of havoc and make you believe that something else is wrong.
I never had good hi-beams on the '54 Kaiser--even the hi-beam indicator light was dim. I replaced the headlamps and reinforced the grounding on the headlamp circuit--all to no avail. Then one night my lo-beams failed. I pulled the headlight switch in and out a couple of times--nothing. Then I snapped the dimmer switch a couple times; that is, stepped it down and slid my foot to the side so the switch snapped back up hard, and got my lights back. Finally found the problem. Upon replacing the dimmer switch, I got full-power hi-beams, a nice bright hi-beam indicator, and good solid lo-beams. Yes, on a 6-volt positive-ground system. Replacing the dimmer switch could solve a lot of other headaches in trying to search your entire lighting circuit for troubles.0 -
All the more reason to fit dual headlamp relays. Then the relay is handling all the current, not the light and dipswitch.
Geoff.0 -
This sounds like a good tech article for the WTN if it hasn't already been one....Geoff ahem!.....0
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Forgive me my ignorance, but this is the first time I ever heard of a "dual headlamp relay." What are they, how many do I need, how are they hooked up into the headlights, and how do I get one? I know that's a lot to ask, but I'm willing to try anything that'll make my headlamps work more efficiently (although since I've installed the new dimmer switch, my 6-volt Kaiser headlamps are every bit as bright as those on my '92 Olds 98).0
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Martin,
A relay is used to divert power to the headlights directly from the battery or generator. It is basically a remote-control switch. Your headlight switch only turns the relay on and off with a low-amperage signal current. If you have a 4 headlight system, or dual 2-filament headlights, so that you have one pair of filaments for low beam, and one pair for high beam, you can either use one dual headlight relay or two single relays. Single relays are easier to find. For one headlight circuit (either low or high beam) install your relay, usually under the hood on the frame or crossmember. On the relay, you will need to wire the terminal labeled "30" straight to the battery. Use an in-line fuse. Use a 10 or 12 AWG wire. Connect terminal "86" to ground. Run a wire, again 10 or 12 AWG, from terminal "87" to each of your low (or high, whichever you're working on) headlights. Some relays have dual "87" connectors, so you can run one wire from each terminal. For relays with one "87" connector, make a "Y" splice. Connect your original power wire that is going to your headlights to terminal "85". This will be the wire coming from your headlight switch. Repeat this process for your other set of filaments (high or low beam) on your other single relay. If you are using a dual relay, this is a little different, and I can explain. New 6V Bosch relays are available from Restoration Supply Company. They also come up on eBay, as do Dual headlight relays.
I apologize for my hurred response. There is an excellent article that goes into more detail at:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/relays/relays.html
Please post any questions.0 -
Here is another place to get headlight relays.
http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/parts/parts_counter_2.html0 -
James has pretty well covered the principles of relays, but to specifically answer your question on dual relays, these have 3 terminals on one side, and two on the other. They contain two relay coils and points (hence the "dual" notation). The input side has a "Bat" terminal which is connected to the voltage source, either from the "Bat" terminal of the voltage regulator on later models, or the supply to the starter switch or solenoid. On the same side are two terminals for the coils, which are connected to the terminals from the dipswitch, or light switch in earlier models. These coils activate the internal points, which are directly connected to the voltage, and only take about 1/2 an amp to activate, hence the reduction in load on the switches. The other side of the relay has two terminals, which go the relevant headlamp circuits, two wires connected to each terminal, going to each side. I hope this explains it. I could do an article for the W.T.N. with circuit diagrams if it was thought of enough topical interest. When you've been working with electrics and electronics as long as I have you tend to forget that there are others out there who have no knowledge of such devices.
Geoff.0 -
Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
Bravo, Geoff! Thanks for the useful info and would enjoy learning more in a WTN article about how to "reduce the heat" on old Hudson electric innards. ArtSJames has pretty well covered the principles of relays, but to specifically answer your question on dual relays, these have 3 terminals on one side, and two on the other. They contain two relay coils and points (hence the "dual" notation). The input side has a "Bat" terminal which is connected to the voltage source, either from the "Bat" terminal of the voltage regulator on later models, or the supply to the starter switch or solenoid. On the same side are two terminals for the coils, which are connected to the terminals from the dipswitch, or light switch in earlier models. These coils activate the internal points, which are directly connected to the voltage, and only take about 1/2 an amp to activate, hence the reduction in load on the switches. The other side of the relay has two terminals, which go the relevant headlamp circuits, two wires connected to each terminal, going to each side. I hope this explains it. I could do an article for the W.T.N. with circuit diagrams if it was thought of enough topical interest. When you've been working with electrics and electronics as long as I have you tend to forget that there are others out there who have no knowledge of such devices.
Geoff.0 -
Thanks, James and Geoff. I knew what relays were from electronics class in tech school (very basic), but I had no idea how they were used for headlamps or in what form. It's easy to see how they will extend component life, but the next burning question is: will these relays produce any noticible increase in brightness? Remember: since I installed a new dimmer switch, both hi- and lo-beams are up to "full snuff" (as far as stock systems go).0
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If simply replacing your dimmer switch solves the problem, don't bother with the relay. It's just that so many people have questionnable wiring and worn switches (which were -- face it -- never that well designed to begin with), and bad grounds due to rust, not to mention 6-volt systems. So for them, anything you can do will help. And, bypassing those miles of bad wires, splices and switches is a definite step in the right direction!0
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Here is some info from Daniel Stern Lighting. Very nice site with good write ups on using relays, etc. Also you can get 6V Halogen head lights from them as well. Note the NAPA part number for the 6V relay.
Hi, Mr. White.
yep, the same circuit works, with a couple of modifications. It's
generally best, if possible, to run off the battery rather than off the
generator unless you are *sure* you understand the specific generator
system in question and can identify the right generator terminal. This
installation also requires 6v relays. These can be devillishly hard to
find; I've set up such circuits using NAPA Echlin ST86, which is a
heavier-duty relay than you need, but better heavier than not heavy
enough. You will need two of them. Aside from that you'll need such things
as fuseholders and HD headlamp sockets, which I keep in stock. Finally,
note that you are NOT handcuffed to cruddy 60-year-old headlamp technology
just because you have a 6v car; I have Cibie E-code headlamp assemblies
and 6v quartz halogen bulbs to suit!
Let me know how I can assist;
DS
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/relays/relays.html0 -
Martin200 wrote:Thanks, James and Geoff. I knew what relays were from electronics class in tech school (very basic), but I had no idea how they were used for headlamps or in what form. It's easy to see how they will extend component life, but the next burning question is: will these relays produce any noticible increase in brightness? Remember: since I installed a new dimmer switch, both hi- and lo-beams are up to "full snuff" (as far as stock systems go).
To check that out, try turning the lights on, and then check the voltage at the terminal block at the side of the radiator (Stepdowns). If you don't have a voltmeter, rig up a bulb with wires soldered to it, and put one wire on ground, and one on each terminal until it lights up. When you find which terminal is the correct one, then run a heavy jumper wire from that terminal to the battery post, and see if the light intnesity increases. My bet is that it will. If so, you need a relay.
Geoff.0
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