Question I've ask myself for 50 years

mrsbojigger · December 2006

Sometimes I get so frustrated with the work habits of guys that do bodywork. I was reading about 50Commodore waiting for so long to get his car finished and it brought memories of the past and present. Why do bodymen who are so talented take so long to finish a project. All the way back in the '50s when I was a teenager, one of my in-laws who was an excellent bodyman and owned his own bodyshop would take months, even years to finish a car. The car would just sit there much to the consternation of it's owner. It was not that he was too busy because when I would go over there he would be doing something else or just shooting the breeze with someone.

50 years later my buddy and also my bodyman on my Hudson just WILL NOT work steadily on my project. Even if there are no other cars to work on and no money coming in for him, he will go off and mow the neighbors lawn, start bar-b-queing, or go over and work on someones projects (non automotive of course) for no money.

Finally just to ease my frustration, I worked out an arrangement with him that I rent a space in his shop and I come over when I want and work on my car there. If I need help he gives me a hand or if he wants he can take the inititive and do some work on it on his own he can. Money does not seem to be the issue since I pay him for any time spent on it. I feel very lucky if I can get 1-2 hours of help from him a week. Most of the time I am there alone which in a way is kinda nice.

Is it because even though they are very talented craftsmen at what they can do, they are trapped in a profession they don't want to be in?
Just wondering!

Peace,
Chaz

[Deleted User] · December 2006

Merry Christmas Chaz

The answer you seek maybe as simple as if the project is done then there is nothing more to think about?

I am the best there is at putting off work. I have parts to exchange on my Hudson, new ideas I want to implement on the car. Updates to the interior... all things that can be done in a few days... but they are not done! The parts and support materials all sit idle on the shelf in my storage garage. Worse, yet, I have a 1970 Formula 400 Firebird that is all done... new everything.. including a rebuilt 400 engine...every few weeks I spin the motor over to keep oil on everything... but the car has NOT been started since assembly was finished 12 months ago. After a 7 year restoration. My excuse... truthfully... once the project is done I am not interested anymore... while it remains undone... it occupies a space but I do not have to find another to replace it... besides the dirty work is done and I can go out to the garage and .. tinker for several hours and not get dirty and have rested my mind ... what this is all about for me... and I will cover the car , turn off the ligtht and return to the everyday grind. Could this be the malady of others?

J Spencer · December 2006

mrsbojigger wrote:

Sometimes I get so frustrated with the work habits of guys that do bodywork. I was reading about 50Commodore waiting for so long to get his car finished and it brought memories of the past and present. Why do bodymen who are so talented take so long to finish a project. All the way back in the '50s when I was a teenager, one of my in-laws who was an excellent bodyman and owned his own bodyshop would take months, even years to finish a car. The car would just sit there much to the consternation of it's owner. It was not that he was too busy because when I would go over there he would be doing something else or just shooting the breeze with someone.

50 years later my buddy and also my bodyman on my Hudson just WILL NOT work steadily on my project. Even if there are no other cars to work on and no money coming in for him, he will go off and mow the neighbors lawn, start bar-b-queing, or go over and work on someones projects (non automotive of course) for no money.

Finally just to ease my frustration, I worked out an arrangement with him that I rent a space in his shop and I come over when I want and work on my car there. If I need help he gives me a hand or if he wants he can take the inititive and do some work on it on his own he can. Money does not seem to be the issue since I pay him for any time spent on it. I feel very lucky if I can get 1-2 hours of help from him a week. Most of the time I am there alone which in a way is kinda nice.

Is it because even though they are very talented craftsmen at what they can do, they are trapped in a profession they don't want to be in?

Just wondering!

Peace,

Chaz

You are right, I don't know why the bodymen do this. I have a friend who took his 68 Camero in for rear quarter panels etc, was supposed to have it back in the spring of the next year.

Nearly three years later he had to take the car out the shop as he was moving to California (from NY state).. The quarters were on, but not correctly, as he had taken the doors off and had no referance to align it correctly.

We put it together so he could tow it across country. That was back in 1982 and to this day it still sits in his garage as it was then. He bought the car just after he got out of the service. It was his 'baby'.

I have known others that have had simalar problems. Man if I did that when I had my Auto Repair shop I probably would have been hung.

The 'experts say that when you take your car in for major work (body 0r mechanical) on retoration/major work you should actually have awritten contract on how the work will be paid for and a projected completion date and possibly a penalty if it is not completed as promised.-- assuming no uncontrolable problems arise, and then those should be discussed also.

I mean "take your time " doesn't mean forever.

Good Luck and Merry Christmas

Hudsonly Jim Spencer

There may be other things that can be worked on while being held up for a needed part or ???

Construction projects do it why not us?

[Deleted User] · December 2006

Bodymen tend to sniff too much of their own fumes, I believe. To keep a guy's car hostage in paint jail for a year is inexcuseable. They shouldn't be taking on the work if they can't finish it in the time specified. Theyre always quick to come up with an excuse: "Well, we got more work coming in, my best guy quit, you can't rush perfection, my dog's sick, blah blah blah".

The same applies to other professions, too, like glass guys and upholsterers. My '37 was in the glass shop for over TWO months for the two FLAT windshields, and another had it a month for TWO roll-up windows (they broke one and had to make another!), and in FOUR different upholstery shops before I found a guy who actually did the work right the first time - and even HE had the car for five weeks!

I know there's a few paint and body guys on this forum - so, what IS the problem???

Geoff · December 2006

Interesting! It seems the same syndrome applies world-wide. I think the basic thing is a lot of "tradesmen" are actually balked at the magnitude of the task given them, and put it in the "I'll do that when there's nothing else in" basket. also, hobbyists tend to say "whenever you can get it done", indicating that they are in no hurry. Hence, for instance, in an upholstery shop you may have your car in for a complete refit. It may get started, but then someone will come in for a quickie boat seat re-cover, or insurance job, etc etc. and your job just gets pushed further and further back into the dark recesses. Plus, often the tradespeople will spend so much time that they consider they are going to have to charge a lesser rate, hence it gets put off even further. I think the answer is to face up to what the cost is going to be, get a realistic quote, and tell them it's urgent. And if it doesn't get done, take it away to some who will do it. I had one case of getting a 1922 Essex tourer completley upholstered - seats, hood, doors carpets. the original estimate was "Around 3 weeks and $3000." Final result - 6 months, much urging, reminding, and cajoling, and over $10,000.

Geoff

Uncle Josh · December 2006

Well now, there are at least two types of work on an old car. Difficult and Impossible. The difficult takes a few days and the impossible takes a little longer. Besides,

Many of these projects need us to do things we've never done before, and

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time"

Also, much of the tasks take inspiration. This stuff is art, not science. Kinda like painting and writing music. Ya can't manufacture or command inspiration, ya have to wait for it, and it may sneak up on ya in the middle of the night

Much of this work is tedious, and some requires invention, which also can't be scheduled.. Ya have to get away from it sometimes to relax think and invent. AND

"Between the big things I can't do, and the little things I won't do, lies the danger of not doing anything."

If restoring/refurbishing Hudsons was work, I'd quit. Liesurely play keeps ya goin.

[Deleted User] · December 2006

Piano refinishers are the same way. The last two pianos I had professionally refinished in the USA took over 18 months each for the body work to be completed.

Now when I want a piano professionally refinished, I send it to Juarez, Mexico. Average turn around time, incl shipping...4 months.

coverton · December 2006

I think I have a partial answer. To do good work on an old car takes one heck of a lot of time, patience and know how. Most body shops that will take on an old car task need to crank out the insurance jobs for their living, then sort of work the restoration jobs in on the side. The ones I know would scare themselves if they really added up the hours it takes to redo poor work, rust and restore from the ground up.

I would hate to figure out just how much time I have spent so far on a car I am redoing at the Community College or what the tag would be so far-

Simply put, most craftsmen want to do a job all will brag about then too all will not complain about the cost of.

hudsonjeff · December 2006

As A Body Shop Owner I Can Say Coverton Is Right. My Shop Will Take On One Or Two Old Car Projects During The Winter Months Which Is When We Usually Have Less Work. We Do Need To Do The Insurance Jobs To Make A Living And Pay The Bills Plus The Insurance Cos Are Counting Rental Days. And When You Can Do A 3-4000 $ Job In A Few Days Its A No Brainer. The Old Cars Are Alot Of Work And Alot Of Time That We Simply Are Not Paid For. We Are Currently Working On A 68 Jaguar 68 Buick And 48 Ford All Came In Last Fall And Will Be Done Late Spring Or Early Summer. I Just Can Not Imagine Keeping A Car For 2-3 Years. It Is Not Good For Either Party Involved. My Hudson However Will Most Likly Not Be Done. Merry Christmas To All.

rambos_ride · December 2006

mrsbojigger wrote:

...50 years later my buddy and also my bodyman on my Hudson just WILL NOT work steadily on my project...

You answered your own question!

By that I just mean he's your buddy and a bodyman...that is the answer!

I have no idea what hourly rate you were paying him - but if its like most of my friends they balk at paying the going rate! In fact I don't do work on cars for friends anymore, too much bichin' not enough payin'

I'll help out anyone who comes looking - but friends gotta pay if they want me to do the work - just like everyone else!

So seriously on topic - does this guy work from home - is he retired, is the car at his site of business?

I know when I was doing body and fender work all day, it was a drag (no matter how much money you make) to do it night and weekend as well. This might be why other things seems to take importance?

Unknown · December 2006

Then there's the other side of the spectrum.......people that try to get the job done too quick. They're ready to put primer on bondo before it properly cures, and hardly wait for the primer to dry before they're painting. My advice is to talk to the people doing the work. I had a "small" problem when I was getting my carbs re-built and powder-coated. The guy told me 3 weeks. After 3 weeks I called, and got the usual excuse that he was behind on his work. I asked how long it would be, and he said another week. The next week I called, and got the same excuse. I told him "you do good work, and that's why I came to you. You know when I start showing this car, people are going to ask about those fancy carbs, and you are going to determine what story I tell them". The carbs were ready 3 days later, and when I went to pick them up, he knocked $50 off the "agreed" price. This guy builds carbs for dragracers, injection systems for SprintCars, and REALLY IS busy all the time. It's a fine line you walk when trying to get someone motivated to do work for you. You want them to finish it, but you don't want to make them mad, and have them do a half-a**ed job. As the old saying goes,"satisfied customers tell 3 people, where dissatisfied customers tell 10".

Unknown · December 2006

Maybe body men are the first to receive the moniker "ADD". I don't think that they can maintain the concentration level to keep on one vehicle for more than 3-4 hours at a time. Look at the commercial body shops, most technicians will have at least two vehicles thay are working on at one time...

Just my 2 cents worth, Patrick may be right too. Too much of the dust and fumes they deal with on a daily basis. A really good friend of mine slowly went "dumb" because he started out working with lead at Harrah's Automobile Collection in Reno and when that closed he went into the commercial world but lead poisoning eventually destroyed his brain. I was really sad to watch this go on as he was one of the most talented craftsmen I ever saw.

hudsonjeff · December 2006

A Godd Body Man Needs 2 -3 Cars At A Time To Make Any $. Its Not That They All Are A.d.d. If You Expect 8 Hours A Day Work On Your Restoration "project" Take It To A Restoration Shop Pay The Man $80per Hour For Every Hour Spent On Your Car. My Bet Is Most Are Not Willing To Pay The True Cost Involved. Take Your Car To A Reputable Shop Agree On An Aproximate Completion Time. Don't Ever Pay Any $ Up Front As That Takes Away The Motivation To Get The Job Done. Most "commercial" Shops In My Area Won't Do An Old Car Because Of The Time Involved.

mrsbojigger · December 2006

This is an unanswerable question because it relates to other professions as well. I was not singleing out the bodyman specifically but this is what I am dealing with at this time. I've had this problem with upholsterers, chrome plating shops, machine shops, artist, house painters, brick layers, plumbers etc, etc. Egads! I had my trusted plumber up and go out of state DEER HUNTING just as I was finishing building a new home for a client so they could move in before the first norther was to blow in. I was so angry I drove 200 miles to "punch him out". Fortunately I had calmed down by the time I got there. If you make a deal to do a job, do it!

As for my initial post ,
1. I was refering to the fact that these guys and particularly my friend has and had NO other jobs in their shop at the time I made these observations. There would be no money coming in.
2. As for my friend, I pay him full price by the hour when he works on my car. I don't get any discounts and I pay rental on my cars space in his shop to boot.
3. As for friendship, my first project that he worked on was before he became my friend so that didn't enter to the picture. We just enjoy each other's company and we both share creative ideas. I firmly believe that if you are my friend then I would want you to prosper. To prosper means that your business would be a success. I would not be your friend if I wanted a lot of "freebies" and discounts from your business.

Hope that clarifies some of what I was trying to convey about my frustration of getting things done on my car in a timely manner. Oh the way I must confess that I am a VERY goal oriented person.

Peace,
Chaz

[Deleted User] · December 2006

Chaz, you've hit the nail on the head right there. Most seem to carre less that they even HAVE your business to begin with, whether it's the paint guy, the upholsterer, the welder, whoever it is. WHY? It's because they know you came to them for one reason - you either do not have the resources or the talent to do that particular task yourself, and YOU need THEM to do it. Problem is, they know that and don't care a whit! They know most customers are not going to insist on a hard deadline and will willingly give up money up front before a wrench is ever turned - they have your car and part of your money up front, and they'll take their own sweet damn time about working on the car.

Problem is, this problem is like the problem with lawyers - there are enough rotten ones out there that give the good ones a bad name.

My response to the paint guy who can't make any money taking on a resto job - quit doing them and stick with insurance work, if it is that big of a PITA to do the restos!

mrsbojigger · December 2006

Like I said I wasn't picking on the bodyguys specifically but I am in this arena right now so that's what sticks in my mind. You can insert "name" here for whatever trade. My parents didn't raise me that way. If I made a deal with someone to do work for them I would honor my commitment regardless of it's resulting inconvenience to me. My deadline is to have the Hudson driveable by August for our family reunion in Oregon. I may have to forego many of the extras I want to do to it to make this deadline. I guess "Gumby Green" epoxy primer/sealer may not be so bad for it's debut.
Peace,
Chaz

rambos_ride · December 2006

Some artists work on their own clocks, I guess would be the best answer.

I think all of us who build cars, or do any of the work yourselves consider the work we do art.

Sometimes an "artists" motivation is just not there, whether the background material be canvas, or metal and the method be brush stroke or welding stick.

I think the best thing to do - is relay to your friend your growing apprehension about the job getting done on time...if you are truly friends sometimes its ok to get mad at each other and have it out - verbally of course!

mrsbojigger · December 2006

Dan,
You may have hit the nail on the head. Looking back at my own experiences most of the problem areas of getting something done has been with dealing with individuals or privately owned companies and not corporations.
And yes my present situation is dealing with a true "Artist". This guy can do "metal magic". I've seen him do things to metal in a couple of minutes that would take other guys hours to do.
And yes, we had our share of clashes but we patch things up and are still friends. I have had to learn to deal with his personality and ride with the flow. That's one reason we made the deal of my being able to come over and work on my car at his shop. I pay rent of course and I bring my own tools. When I need help or he is up to working on it he can come over and do his thing.
One thing I have discovered about him and he acknowledges this is that he works better on small panic emergency jobs rather than long haul projects where you have to stick with it. I am just the opposite, I can keep after something everyday, day in and day out for years if necessary. Well this helped. This forum thread is almost like going to a psychiatrist. Ha, Ha!

Happy New Year and Peace,
Chaz

Unknown · December 2006

A comment from me, Within the last 3 years I have had 2 1933 Terraplane 8's, A coupe and a Convertible and a 1919 Essex touring done by a fellow in Pa. He took a lot more time than expected, but there AIN'T any bondo in them. I always tell people that he is good, not fast. So you better be ready to wait. When I left to come to IOWA he had about 5 cars he was working on at that time, plus a 1931 Model A Roadster that I lined up for him, plus insurance work that pays the real bills. AND this is only a 2 man shop

SamJ · December 2006

mrsbojigger wrote:

This is an unanswerable question because it relates to other professions as well. I was not singleing out the bodyman specifically but this is what I am dealing with at this time. I've had this problem with upholsterers, chrome plating shops, machine shops, artist, house painters, brick layers, plumbers etc, etc. Egads! I had my trusted plumber up and go out of state DEER HUNTING just as I was finishing building a new home for a client so they could move in before the first norther was to blow in. I was so angry I drove 200 miles to "punch him out". Fortunately I had calmed down by the time I got there. If you make a deal to do a job, do it!

Peace,

Chaz

Wow, Chaz, you are a lot braver than I am...I don't think I'd drive 200 miles to try and punch out a guy carrying a 30.06! LOL. I did a project for my company a couple of years ago...the complete body off "restofication" of a '54 Dodge station wagon. I started with a 2-man shop owned by a guy I trusted and made him project manager. We worked out a detailed written plan and time line, lined up subcontractors, and identified who was doing what and who was obtaining what parts by when. During this period, my guy didn't work an any other customer's cars...they just languished. Six months later, the vehicle was unveiled at the SEMA Show. Best $110,000 of OPM I ever spent! (LOL) But the squeaky wheel, armed with a plan and a bank account, can get things done.:D

mrsbojigger · December 2006

Sam,
Not bravery, just youth and stupidity.
BTW, even being a great licensed plumber that he was he had installed the water heater backwards so that the controls and pilot light opening faced the concrete block wall in his haste to get away and go deer hunting. And another problem added onto that at the time was that no other plumber would come out to help me correct the problem so I could meet my deadline. I had to wait until he got back.
Ahh, but that's in the past now. I am no longer a home builder.
Peace,
Chaz

Unknown · December 2006

when I took my wasp to the body man who did my car I gave it to him in the fall, November I think it was, I told him that I needed it done by April for an event that was happening and was it possible? He assured me that it would be done and darned if it wasn't. He got it done just in time. One thing he asked me at the start was if I wanted it done as a driver or show car as time and money would be a factor. I told him I wanted a driver and thats what I got. Its not perfect but I have entered it in shows and I have won trophys so all in all I am happy with what I ended up with. Luckily the car had virtually no rust except for the rear wheel wells which he rebuilt. The frame was perfect. I left the mechanicals original and untouched except for some maintenance but the engine is a little tired and the clutch chatters but all in all its a good driver and I enjoy her more now than when I first got her. It seems like the more you drive a Hudson over time the better the experience gets. Merry Christmas all...Jim

Question I've ask myself for 50 years

Comments

Categories

In this Discussion