Change in Diesel Rated Oils important if you use in your Hudson
The Studebaker guys (of which I am one) have for some time recommended diesel rated oils like Rotella T for older cars with flat tappet cams and such due to the amount of zinc additives. With the new LE (low emission) diesels hitting the roads that is changing and the amount of zinc is being drastically reduced. I am passing this along since I also think it is important for our older Hudsons which have similar requirements. So if you are of this belief it might be time to stock up on CI-4 rated oil.
From the SDC forum:
The new Low-Emissions LE-rated Diesel Oils have started appearing on shelves right along side the older Diesel-Rated oils we have recommended for Studebakers. Fortunately, the bottles have the difference specified; reading the labels will prevent you from accidentally buying the newer products.
The new LE-rated diesel oils are still C-Rated [Compression-Ignition], but do not have as much zinc compound as the older oils, and are thus not as good for Studebaker engines, all of which have flat-tappet (non-roller) camshafts and valve lifters....except the highly-modified ones, of course.
The new oils generally say LE [Low-Emission] somewhere on the label...but even if they don't, the tipoff is their new API [American Petroleum Institute] Rating of CJ-4. CJ-4 will appear in the little API circle somewhere on the oil container. It may be a good idea to stock up on all the CI-4 and CI-4 Plus-rated oil you can find, because sooner or later, all these diesel oils may become CJ-4 and we'll be back to looking for alternatives that aren't as cheap or readily available as your local discount or auto store chains.
Today, I noted Mobil Delvac and Castrol Tection Extra on the shelf, both still having the CI-4 and CI-4-Plus rating; good. However, both formulas of Shell Rotella-T and Chevron Delo 400 were on the same shelf(!); one had to look at the labels carefully to be sure you weren't buying the new CJ-4, Low Emissions formula!
From the SDC forum:
The new Low-Emissions LE-rated Diesel Oils have started appearing on shelves right along side the older Diesel-Rated oils we have recommended for Studebakers. Fortunately, the bottles have the difference specified; reading the labels will prevent you from accidentally buying the newer products.
The new LE-rated diesel oils are still C-Rated [Compression-Ignition], but do not have as much zinc compound as the older oils, and are thus not as good for Studebaker engines, all of which have flat-tappet (non-roller) camshafts and valve lifters....except the highly-modified ones, of course.
The new oils generally say LE [Low-Emission] somewhere on the label...but even if they don't, the tipoff is their new API [American Petroleum Institute] Rating of CJ-4. CJ-4 will appear in the little API circle somewhere on the oil container. It may be a good idea to stock up on all the CI-4 and CI-4 Plus-rated oil you can find, because sooner or later, all these diesel oils may become CJ-4 and we'll be back to looking for alternatives that aren't as cheap or readily available as your local discount or auto store chains.
Today, I noted Mobil Delvac and Castrol Tection Extra on the shelf, both still having the CI-4 and CI-4-Plus rating; good. However, both formulas of Shell Rotella-T and Chevron Delo 400 were on the same shelf(!); one had to look at the labels carefully to be sure you weren't buying the new CJ-4, Low Emissions formula!
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Comments
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Dan,what about Prolong or Duralube additives?.Does Amsoil,Redline and other companys like these all have to comply.Do they offer have a special additive?.0
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This came up at a recent meeting of the local AACA, and there is a thread concerning this issue, at the AACA's website.
GM supposedly makes an additive to compensate for this problem, which costs about $10 per filling. I will check that out and post it here when I find it.0 -
The additives are surely an option and yes Redline and others make oils that will continue to work, at least for now. The issue is cost for any of these options. Rotella-T and others are the most economical choices. Take a look at Redline prices!
Hey, the Studebaker folks are known to be thrifty!!0 -
Dan,I am compiling info to use at the tech session about Maintaining + Safely keeping your Hudson on the road.This is another great tip.0
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50C8DAN wrote:The Studebaker guys (of which I am one) have for some time recommended diesel rated oils like Rotella T for older cars with flat tappet cams and such due to the amount of zinc additives. With the new LE (low emission) diesels hitting the roads that is changing and the amount of zinc is being drastically reduced. I am passing this along since I also think it is important for our older Hudsons which have similar requirements. So if you are of this belief it might be time to stock up on CI-4 rated oil.
From the SDC forum:
The new Low-Emissions LE-rated Diesel Oils have started appearing on shelves right along side the older Diesel-Rated oils we have recommended for Studebakers. Fortunately, the bottles have the difference specified; reading the labels will prevent you from accidentally buying the newer products.
The new LE-rated diesel oils are still C-Rated [Compression-Ignition], but do not have as much zinc compound as the older oils, and are thus not as good for Studebaker engines, all of which have flat-tappet (non-roller) camshafts and valve lifters....except the highly-modified ones, of course.
The new oils generally say LE [Low-Emission] somewhere on the label...but even if they don't, the tipoff is their new API [American Petroleum Institute] Rating of CJ-4. CJ-4 will appear in the little API circle somewhere on the oil container. It may be a good idea to stock up on all the CI-4 and CI-4 Plus-rated oil you can find, because sooner or later, all these diesel oils may become CJ-4 and we'll be back to looking for alternatives that aren't as cheap or readily available as your local discount or auto store chains.
Today, I noted Mobil Delvac and Castrol Tection Extra on the shelf, both still having the CI-4 and CI-4-Plus rating; good. However, both formulas of Shell Rotella-T and Chevron Delo 400 were on the same shelf(!); one had to look at the labels carefully to be sure you weren't buying the new CJ-4, Low Emissions formula!
More regarding Oil Industry reducing its Zinc Additive disregarding older vehicles....
I agree with Dan on his comments and have been reading about this subject closely over the past few months. All the aticles agree if you have a flat tappet camshaft these days to avoid oils with the 'Energy Star Symbol' that have reduced levels of ZDDP and use only oils with SJ or SM Ratings including Diesel Engine oils. Howver, they also stated like Dan mentioned Zinc Levels are going to continue to be reduced in all Highway oils including diesels due to constantly raising 'emissions Standards'. They recommend using Dioesel Oil, or Racing Oils which are not regulated by the API, because of non- highway useage. However, reading between the lines, In my personal opinion, I felt the most critical point was on 'breaking-in of a new flat lifter cam', which requires much higher pressure paste lubricant on the lobes now, (GM #12345501 or equilivent) and more strict initial start up procedure, rather than experiencing problems with flat lifter cams 'already in service'. Additionally, they recommend ensuring tappets spin in their bores and do not use over 300# spring pressure with flat tappets. If not using Diesel, or Racing Oil, after cam Break- in the articles recommended using GM EOS #1052367 Additive until the first oil change. ( new cams only). In Service stock cams, look closely at the symbols, preferably (SH) the highest current level of Zinc @120 even if use diesel oil . Regarding Hi- Perf Cams, use racing oil, or GM EOS additive. I am ... Ol Racer0 -
I think storing oil is not a good idea since oil is aging and loosing its properties over time. We here in Germany have the same dicussions about modern oils not suitable for old engines. Besides the fact,that modern oils are getting thinner and thiner, the discussions are revolving around another fact. Modern oils keep the dirt particles flowing inside the oil circle to make sure they reach the oilfilter. Whereas old style oils tend to let the particles settle down in the sump or the centifuge. That means modern oils are transporting all the dirt exactly to all the areas where we don't need them, due to the fact that old engines usually don't have modern filtering system and the modern oil keeps the particles constantly in flow.
Here in Europe the oil industry recocnized the fact that old car owners are willing to spend good money for their toys, and subconsequently are nowaday offering oils, what they call "oldtimer oil", meaning oil which is suitable for old engines only. Companies offering a range of "oldtimer oil" are Castrol another and Miller Oil.
If you don't want to miss the qualities of modern oil, the other alternative is to upgrade you engine with a modern filtering system. Different system are as "bolt on systems" availlable. This is very widely used here in Europe for all historic high output engines, such as brit bikes, sport cars, ...etc.
Check this:
http://www.millersoil.net/M3classic.html
and
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/subsection.do?categoryId=9014105&contentId=70274170 -
Here is Crane's flat tappet break in procedures which notes the zinc issue:
http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/548e.pdf0 -
Okay, suppose you have a Hudson engine with many miles on it, like mine (a '37 splasher six). The rods and rings were recently changed, but the camshaft and valve components have been in there a long time. So... according to the above, the EOS additive is NOT recommended? Assuming the car is now running on some sort of 'break-in oil', what would be my course of action? Just soldier on until broken in (maybe 500 miles?), THEN replace oil with the SJ or SM (diesel) rating?
If EOS is not recommended, is there another additive I can use in the existing oil, to tide me over?
And then, with the next oil change, I should be okay with a diesel oil?
It's all a bit confusing and worrisome, especially for someone without that much knowledge of mechanics. I have read an extensive thread on this subject over at the AACA website and the gist of the thread is that there does not seem to be complete agreement on this subject.
I hope this isn't another "Y2K", so to speak!0 -
Wonder if the high mileage oils, and oils listed for older engines are better for our cars.0
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I heard the "high milage oils" also lack the zinc content everyone seems to be worried about. Anyway, I wish someone had mentioned this about the CI-4 being the oil to look for earlier as I purchased two gallons of Rotella (CJ-4) two weeks ago for my 1950 Pacemaker's oil change. And, I too wonder if all this concern about "zincless" motor oil will eventually amount to nothing. After all, as had been pointed out earlier in this forum, car and other motor vehical engines seemed to do just fine prior to the early 1950's before these oil additives became more widespread.
Dan0 -
Well, I use Rotella in the Hornet too, but I'm not unduly concerned. I think I've mentioned before that I use Mobil-1 synthetic in my Norton motorcycle. This engine has flat tappets (actually slightly rounded) and since it's highly modified, has much higher spring pressure and a much more radical cam profile than any ordinary Hudson, and also turns much faster and runs much hotter. It has a magnetic sump plug and I never see a bit of stuff on it. I'm convinced that the Mobil-1 is a superior lubricant, although ponying up for 7 quarts for a Hudson oil change would be painful. But then, putting gas in it is painful too.0
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