Building the 308
Hey Guys,
As some of you know, I didn't make it back from the Western Regional due to engine failure. Well we finally got the car home and started tearing into the engine in hopes that maybe some minor repairs would save the day, but no such luck. It was more than obvious that the motor had a lot more miles on it than described by the previous owners who were Hudson Club members ( the surprises never stop on this car, but we won't go there now) but the clincher was the broken #2 piston. The crank has already been turned .010 the number 5 piston is completely different than the other 5, two different head bolts were used,5/8 head and 11/16 head, and what appears to be a 262 head gasket with the 262 head on a 308. This I think led to premature engine failure as the metal ring of the gasket was in the combustion chambers and being slammed by the pistons. Not pretty.
Anyway I would like some suggestions and inputs on building a stout engine. I hope to only do this once ( at least on this car).
How far can I bore it,can I offset grind the crank for more cubes, how about bigger valves,bigger cam,balancing,grinding and shotpeening the rods, porting and relieving. It is a 54 block so some relieving has been done. How about that 262 head,keep it or change it? I think Hudsonator and Randy Maas will have some good input on stepping the motor up but I am open to everyones ideas. Not looking for a drag car but since the opportunity is here and it ain't going to be cheap,I might as well step it up. More than 7X but not full race. Car is a Hornet Special 2 dr so pretty light car. No power options and manual trans,so definately a sleeper. So lets have some fun and build a 308.
Thanks,
As some of you know, I didn't make it back from the Western Regional due to engine failure. Well we finally got the car home and started tearing into the engine in hopes that maybe some minor repairs would save the day, but no such luck. It was more than obvious that the motor had a lot more miles on it than described by the previous owners who were Hudson Club members ( the surprises never stop on this car, but we won't go there now) but the clincher was the broken #2 piston. The crank has already been turned .010 the number 5 piston is completely different than the other 5, two different head bolts were used,5/8 head and 11/16 head, and what appears to be a 262 head gasket with the 262 head on a 308. This I think led to premature engine failure as the metal ring of the gasket was in the combustion chambers and being slammed by the pistons. Not pretty.
Anyway I would like some suggestions and inputs on building a stout engine. I hope to only do this once ( at least on this car).
How far can I bore it,can I offset grind the crank for more cubes, how about bigger valves,bigger cam,balancing,grinding and shotpeening the rods, porting and relieving. It is a 54 block so some relieving has been done. How about that 262 head,keep it or change it? I think Hudsonator and Randy Maas will have some good input on stepping the motor up but I am open to everyones ideas. Not looking for a drag car but since the opportunity is here and it ain't going to be cheap,I might as well step it up. More than 7X but not full race. Car is a Hornet Special 2 dr so pretty light car. No power options and manual trans,so definately a sleeper. So lets have some fun and build a 308.
Thanks,
0
Comments
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Well, I would start with sonic testing the cylinder wall thickness and that will tell you how big you can safely go on the bore size. I would spend as much money as I could on a custom set of ultra light weight forged pistons and low tension rings. 7x size valves, good springs and retainers and a five angle valve job should let that 308 rev easy. If you go the offset ground crank,you may find a piston/rod combo from some other engine that will work without having custom pistons made.0
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Thanks Chris. Sounds like a good starting plan. Any suggestions on where to start sourcing some of these parts?0
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keep the 262 head. and check out cliffordperformance.com they also have cams which is not listed on there site. -john0
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I've looked at their site but have not heard good stories about them. Apparently all went down hill after Jack Clifford passed. I am also an Olds guy and the same thing happened with Joe Mondello. He is semi retired and doing some consulting so I understand. Someone else runs Mondello Performance and is a total shister. All over the Olds site's say not to deal with Mondello. Kind of sad how no one is following in these pioneers of automobiles footsteps.0
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Jack Cliffords recommendations for Hudson engine over haul and rebuild remain the same... each copy of his catalog contained his recommendation chart... My website has the following information on the front page....
http://members.aol.com/sanjuana/Incoming/Clifford.pdf
and if you really want to do the right stuff to a Hudson... Bernie Seigfrieds letters provide the meat and potatoes ... again on the front page of my website...http://members.aol.com/sanjuana/Incoming/BernieSPg1.pdf
Finally Sloan's article within the body of the second page of my website provides real world information on what to do when looking to make a Hudson engine perform...
Cheers from HOT0 -
Thanks Ken,
I know your site well and keep it in my favorites list on my computer for regular reference. Wasn't sure how up to date everything is. Unfortunately most of these guys are long past and you can't go to them for advice or parts so I am seeing who all is carrying the torch now and what my options are, so I can get er done.
Thanks,
Rob0 -
0
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Here's a better picture.
http://abdownload.free.fr/Anaglyphs/24/24377_LR_Fischer_Hudson_Invader_168.jpg0 -
As Far As I Knew All Of Jack Cliffords Stuff Is Still Made From The Original Casts. So Im Sure Its All The Same. Now I Cant Say Anything About The Custom Stuff.0
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Just use Dale Coopers pistons--cut some off skirt to lighten if you want. Deck block .010. Use regular rings unless you want to put a quart of oil in every 250 miles. I like the 402 lift-276 dur. cam I sell for great street power. You can use twin-H but bore out venturi and replace with a 36 or 38 mm venturi. You will need to bore out idle jet .007-.008 and main jet .002-003 or et a clifford intake and holley. Use 262 head, headers, electronic ignition and a smile will be on your face when you accelerate. You will experience frequent trips to the gas pumps. Gas is coming down anyway. OR use a .372-254 cam good idle and good low end power and use headers and let everything else stay stock.
Randy Maas0 -
You can use the tried and tested old school stuff thats out there, or you can think outside the box and try some of the modern tweaks that have been so successfull with the Ford 5.0/302 crowd. Call a few of the camshaft builders and see if they can regrind your cam with similar duration and lift as the popular hudson grinds,but incorperate the quick ramp open and close rates of modern grinds. You can have a lot of the moving internal parts treated with space age coatings that reduce friction without modifying the stock parts. You could have the stock intake Extrudehone ported. If its a 54 hornet you could build a ram air box to seal against the hood and your engine will breath cool air through the stock hood opening.0
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You should look at Uncommon Engineering's stuff, too- www.uncommonengineering.com.0
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Randy,
I sent you an e-mail with questions and some of my ideas.
Chris, I've got K&N's on my Twin H and I opened up my scoop a little on the inside sheetmetal. Haven't come up with a way to seal it all off though yet.0 -
maasfh wrote:
I'm going to say something about Randy's "Hot Cam". That's probably the best cam out there for the street performance minded Hudson enthusiast.Just use Dale Coopers pistons--cut some off skirt to lighten if you want. Deck block .010. Use regular rings unless you want to put a quart of oil in every 250 miles. I like the 402 lift-276 dur. cam I sell for great street power. You can use twin-H but bore out venturi and replace with a 36 or 38 mm venturi. You will need to bore out idle jet .007-.008 and main jet .002-003 or et a clifford intake and holley. Use 262 head, headers, electronic ignition and a smile will be on your face when you accelerate. You will experience frequent trips to the gas pumps. Gas is coming down anyway. OR use a .372-254 cam good idle and good low end power and use headers and let everything else stay stock.
Randy Maas
Great numbers, even in regard to tappet acceleration. The one thing about that cam that works great on the street is its lobe separation angles. I seriously doubt it improves your gas mileage though! It does help preserve cylinder pressures where the old tried and true designs bled you down a bit too much. We don't have alot of cylinder pressure to start with - so we need to keep as much of it as we can.
Which cam is the .374 - 254* cam? Is that the standard 344 cam or the '55 mechanical? I really messed up when I didn't spec out the 344 cam, I hadn't planned on using it - but did at the last minute when my 742 cams came up with problems. I really wish I had the numbers on that most common of Hudson camshafts. It does have great low end torque and doesn't wheeze like I thought it would up higher (around 4500) with better intake and exhaust options.
There are lots of options out there, which is exciting. I'm kinda happy with my penny-wise 308, happier than I thought I would be. It wasn't done cheaply by any means, but I did keep the expenses within reason with the money spent on machining and time in detail. No porting, relieving, or any exotic work whatsoever. I wanted to see what a 308 would be like in very reliable and common form, its not a disappointing engine at all.
A link to that engine and its particulars w/pictures
http://forum.olskoolrodz.com/showthread.php?t=27885&highlight=back+business+Hud
Somewhere in that thread is the cost figures, suppliers, and other options with costs.
Mark0 -
Hudsonator: The 372-254 is the 55 mechanical cam. Chris, nothing wrong with some of the old tech. I use it all the time. I have enjoyed putting the Fords on the trailer in the past. I think you missed the point that the rebuild this gent wants to do is for the street--not drag--some mods over & above the 7X. I would rather see him spend $300 for Dale's pistons compared to $600 for forged. That extra $300 could go for machine work or a new manifold & holley or trick out the WA-1 carbs. 464Saloon, I did not receive your email.
Randy
hetmaasfh@ntslink.net
drop het0 -
hudsonator, the tech articles are much appreciated, if only i could get into the factory today (public holiday here).
how much compression is too much for these engines? we can buy up to 98 octane at the pump in australia, but i'd most likely want to pay for 95
how do i go about measuring the chamber volume in the block? id like to know how much to take out when i grind new reliefs for the 7x valves and know they are all even when im done.0 -
Randy Maas is spot on with all of his information! I have just completed a 308 built with many of the above listed parts including Dale cooper's pistons and bi-metal valves, with a few 7X tricks learned from Randy - and it is a runner!! Stay away from the exotic and just build a good quality engine that is good on power and will last.
Fred0 -
Hey Chris, have you built a 308 using the techniques you talk about above? what kind of results you seeing?0
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half baked wrote:hudsonator, the tech articles are much appreciated, if only i could get into the factory today (public holiday here).
how much compression is too much for these engines? we can buy up to 98 octane at the pump in australia, but i'd most likely want to pay for 95
how do i go about measuring the chamber volume in the block? id like to know how much to take out when i grind new reliefs for the 7x valves and know they are all even when im done.
How much compression is too much? Good question. I've heard all kinds of comments from folks on compression and most posts here don't like to go beyond a 262 head, which I think is somewhere just shy of 8:1 depending on how much its been cut.
To be perfectly honest, most of the pinging going on is probably head gaskets in various states of failure and/or ignition problems.
I'm running a slightly cut 262 head on a zero decked 308 in the Wasp, which I haven't cc'd to be sure (I was shocked to see the pistons at the top of the block when I swapped head gaskets as it isn't an engine I've rebuilt - but there they were!). I'd guess that engine to be close to 8.5-8.75:1 with its overbore of .060". No pinging or any adverse problems running 89 or 87 octane gas. It has the factory reliefs, no 7x work. It runs good with a really snappy throttle.
The rebuilt 308 is running a '55 aluminum 308 head that has been cut but the chamber roofs finished to uncut head depths, they clear the valves with the cam lift I have by .125". All the chambers matched cc-wise to 92 cc's. The aluminum heads were tighter on compression than the cast iron ones. Oddly enough, the '55 aluminum head cc'd out the same as a 262 initially, which is why I used it.
Both heads have the chambers polished, which helps on detonation and pinging.
On cc-ing the block. I have a 3/8" thick piece of plexiglass with a relief cut in it to clear the valve edges that protrude above the deck plane. The piece of plexiglass should be large enough to cover/seal the entire valve pocket area and the cylinder. The drip hole is cut into the relief at the deepest place to let the air out and completely fill. A dab of light grease on a shop rag wiped around the edges of the piston head and block relief, pushed into the cracks with your finger and a light coating of the same grease around the block will seal it off. Light is the word on grease, or you'll alter your accuracy. The size of the plexiglass relief is not important as long as it clears your valves and you know the cc's of the relief to subtract from your measurement.
If you've got a positive deck piston, just roll your engine up till it seals off on the plexiglass itself and everything is flush. You'll need to know much your piston sticks up to calculate the cc's it displaces in the gasket clearance area. A zero deck piston is good for about 5 cc of compression increase, more if you don't rework your factory valve reliefs as it raises the valve head positions and makes the reliefs shallower. No real definite numbers as the relief cuts and valve head heights are unique to each engine, so its best to measure your own and go from there. Lots of variations on the reliefs, so I'm hesitant to throw out any numbers there. Not only variations between engines, but variations between cylinders in the same engine.
I've yet to tackle 7x type block reliefs. Getting them all the same cc and keeping similiar flow characteristics is going to be tricky and really time consuming.
Mark0 -
thankyou very much. first on the list is cc'ing and smoothing the chambers in the head and matching all of the ports, i'll tackle the valve reliefs after getting the block back from having the bores, deck and valve seats machined. my block is and head are '55 models so i already have a small relief from factory, i think i will just take the sharp edge off the edge of the valve seats to try and keep some good flow but not take too much out and lose compression0
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Got some good stuff going here. Randy I sent you an e-mail via your 21st Century addy but I have now resent it to the one you have provided.
Mark, sent you an e-mail to the one you provided me in the PM you sent me.
I have already sent one to Randy Spring and am waiting a response from you. Walt Mordenti ( Walt's Garage) has also been giving me some of his inputs.
Thanks to all,
Rob0 -
just my opinion here, I do think if 464saloon has a chance to compare a lightend forged piston next to a cast piston he will see the obvious differences. He will also have a foundation to safely upgrade power adders at a later date if he chooses to. I know he is not building a drag racer,but his statement said he only wanted to do it once and his engine did die from a failed piston. There are thousands of 5.0 liter fords on the street that come from the factory with low tension rings and don't suffer from oil usage. Just put a PCV system and or a pan evacuation system plumbed to the header collector and go. In general Id say nobodys Hudson is a daily driver so why worry about daily driver issues. I would go conservative on the cam and compression and work on the small details.0
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Good point Chris and it will be interesting to hear what the big engine builders like Randy,Danny and Mark say. I'm am anxsiously awaiting responses from them.0
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If I were you I'd bore the block only as big as I needed to to clean it up. They're not making any more of these things and good blocks are starting to grt hard to come by, but it's your engine. Just think where you'll be if you have to go thru it again!0
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Just checked weights on a set of stock cast pistons .040 and set of forged Ross pistons I have in stock.
Stock=709 grams with stock pin
Forged=721 grams with light weight pin
Obviously lighter custom forged pistons could be made. Nascar style?
Randy0 -
maasfh wrote:Just checked weights on a set of stock cast pistons .040 and set of forged Ross pistons I have in stock.
Stock=709 grams with stock pin
Forged=721 grams with light weight pin
Obviously lighter custom forged pistons could be made. Nascar style?
Randy
Dale's pistons are good pieces, and there really isn't a worry unless you intend on living in the 4800-5000 rpm range, if I was going to be in that rpm range alot - I'd have forged pistons that could handle 5500 feet per minute piston speeds. Piston speed at your maximum designed rpm are really what determine your piston material more than any other perameter. Weight-wise, I found out the same as Randy.
I've also discovered there can be as much as 15-20 grams difference in the rod weights alone, so a piston weights are kinda out the window unless you go ultra custom.
On the stock 308 we built last fall, we had to mix n' match Dale's pistons to different rods to get semi-uniform rod/piston weights. I can't remember how much variation there was in Dale's piston weights to make a report. I do know that we still had to drill some holes in the pin pads to make up the difference in rod weights as we couldn't take up the slack with the piston weight differences (Dale's pistons were much more uniform in weight than the rods by FAR!).
I can't explain the rod weight differences. Same forging #s, same everything except weight and a corresponding difference in rod lenghts, up to .020" variance from long to short from a target of 8.125".
Mark0 -
Randy,
Have you got any of my e-mails?
Mark,got yours and responded back,also got a response form Danny. So what does everyone think of lightening the rotating assy? I always grind,polish and shotpeen all my rods on motors but this will be my first Hudson. That is the time to get all your rods the same weight.0 -
464Saloon wrote:Randy,
Have you got any of my e-mails?
Mark,got yours and responded back,also got a response form Danny. So what does everyone think of lightening the rotating assy? I always grind,polish and shotpeen all my rods on motors but this will be my first Hudson. That is the time to get all your rods the same weight.
Randy, Danny, and Rudy Bennett have much more experiance with these rods than I do - I'm equally interested in their input.
My observation is, don't take anymore off the rod than absolutely necessary. I've had these rods in two other engine experts hands and they were pretty adamant on not whacking much off the rods. While the crank is kinda fat, the rods are equally thin. Joe Mondello was so insistant that the rods not be cut on that we decided to balance the stroker crank by journal/bobweight specific means rather than evening up the assembly weights and using the same weight bobs.
I would do no more on the rods than what's required to remove the old forging flashing along the beams, and would do that with a file rather than a grinder to keep localized heat to an absolute minimum.
One more quick note on balancing the six cylinder, 120* rod rod throw separation cranks. Do talk to your machinist and bobweight the crank. Standard balancing of 6 cylinder cranks does not call for bobweights as does other types of engines. The logic is that its self balancing, which may be true, but the weight working on your journals does change things in the dynamic. I've not had the pleasure of pushing the Hudson engine to the limit we have flathead mopars and inline chevys, but this one change has made a huge difference in raising the rpm ceiling of the two 6 bangers we have pushed hard. Rather than breaking cranks, we're destroying harmonic dampers. Its a small little detail, but really helps the long-ish cranks.
What we really need, badly, is an effective harmonic damper option. My stroker crank has been fitted for an ATI damper which I really like - because its tunable, but its for a small block chevy and required the crank snout to machined to fit. I haven't run this damper yet, but it shows promise. All we need is for someone to make/sell an affordable hub to mate this damper up to a stock Hudson crank snout and find an aftermarket pulley that will work.
A link to ATI and its dampers. Some good reading there to understand how important this often overlooked piece is.
http://www.atiperformanceproducts.com/products/dampers/index.htm
Back to work!
Mark0 -
Mark,
My knowledge of balancing is pretty limited. That has always been handled by the machine shops I dealt with so I really never got involved. Did it once once on a Chevy project I worked on, but it was long ago and I don't remember a lot of the specifics. Now you mention Joe Mondello. This isn't the same Joe Mondello who was the great Oldsmobile guru is it? If it is I once knew him well back in the 80's when his shop was here in the Los Angeles area. He helped me build a wicked BB Olds for my 73 Cutlass. My first car which I still have. Currently undergoing a body of resto but this certain Hudson I bought keeps pushing it to the back burner. Anyway if it is the same man, how did you get involved with him on a stroker Hudson. As far as I know he is pretty much retired,sold the business to some shister and his name unfortunately has been quite tarnished by it in the Olds forums I hang out on. Please do expand on this balancing so I can be sure to follow through on it here.0 -
464Saloon wrote:Mark,
My knowledge of balancing is pretty limited. That has always been handled by the machine shops I dealt with so I really never got involved. Did it once once on a Chevy project I worked on, but it was long ago and I don't remember a lot of the specifics. Now you mention Joe Mondello. This isn't the same Joe Mondello who was the great Oldsmobile guru is it? If it is I once knew him well back in the 80's when his shop was here in the Los Angeles area. He helped me build a wicked BB Olds for my 73 Cutlass. My first car which I still have. Currently undergoing a body of resto but this certain Hudson I bought keeps pushing it to the back burner. Anyway if it is the same man, how did you get involved with him on a stroker Hudson. As far as I know he is pretty much retired,sold the business to some shister and his name unfortunately has been quite tarnished by it in the Olds forums I hang out on. Please do expand on this balancing so I can be sure to follow through on it here.
It is in fact the same Joe Mondello
His shop and technical school is in Crossville Tennesse now, about 70 miles east of me.
That is the shop doing the machining on the stroker engine. And, whenever I can get away - he's going to help me on the flow work. I've been completely tied up for about a year now and unable to devote myself to the stroker. Joe has been tied up with tractor engines, he was introduced to tractor pullers when he arrived to Tennesse and has kinda fallen in love with the variety of engines and room for improvements. I completely understand that.
He'll also work with you by the day, at a daily rate, on a project or topic.
Joe is a fine fella - actually put me on the phone with Ed Iskenderian talking about Hudson cam grinds. Joe spec'ed out Randy's camshaft with a digital measuring device and came to the same conclusion I did - excellent. That's how I know the ramp rates of Randy's Hot Cam.
Mark0
This discussion has been closed.
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