Building the 308
Comments
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I forgot
How I got involved with Joe.
I was looking for technical schools to perhaps learn more about flowbenchs and flowbench work. Joe's technical school popped up on the computer and I noticed he was moving to Crossville.
I stopped by his place one day while going home from work, as my day job included Cumberland County. I was just looking for information, but caught him just moving in and not very involved in his normal activities.
Which, was much to my advantage - because we had time to talk and get acquainted. He noticed the "Hudson Motor Co." patch on my jacket - and there we went. He's a Hudson fan, even though his beloved Olds and the Hudson were arch rivals in the early days.
Before I knew it, he had convinced me to move my project up to his shop.
He's a very personable man to say the least.
Mark0 -
Wow what a small world this can be at times. He used to be in Van Nuys CA and that is where I would go and he would coach me through my 455 build. At the time I was probably the only one in the world hot rodding a 73 Cutlass 4 door. He is or was a pretty sharp guy and may just remember me. Just for laughs,next time you see him, asked him if the name Rob MacKey ( prounounced McKay). sounds familiar? What a blast it would be if he did and not only heard I still have that same 73 with his Mondello valvetrain in it,but now I have a Fabulous Hudson Hornet too. Though not so fabulous right now.0
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Robert
I tried calling you last night but no answer.
Randy0 -
Randy,
Snet you two e-mails to your HET addy,one to your 21st Century addy and one PM. Not sure what number you have. Mark and I have been e-mailing alot so I don't know why we aren't connecting.
Rob0 -
464Saloon wrote:Randy,
Snet you two e-mails to your HET addy,one to your 21st Century addy and one PM. Not sure what number you have. Mark and I have been e-mailing alot so I don't know why we aren't connecting.
Rob
Well, I do understand e-mail problems. My normal e-mail hasn't downloaded anything in a month and I'm sure its snafu'd.
So, anybody wanting to contact me needs to use my backup e-mail
hudtheman@yahoo.com
Don't know what's up with the normal account?
Mark0 -
Well I have tried everything and he seems to be able to reply here so not sure what else to do. Next question is OIL PUMP springs. Who stocks those as mine came out last night in 10 pcs.0
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Well I have tried everything and he seems to be able to respond here. Next question is where do you get new oil pump springs? Mine came out in 10 pcs, believe it or not.0
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464Saloon wrote:Randy,
Snet you two e-mails to your HET addy,one to your 21st Century addy and one PM. Not sure what number you have. Mark and I have been e-mailing alot so I don't know why we aren't connecting.
Rob
Rob.
Got your two e-mails. Tried calling twice to the number you give me. I am listed in the Roster with phone number. It is 309-968-6157 or cell at 309-267-6158. The PM on this site I did not get nor the one throught 21st Cent.0 -
PM went out yesterday at 1:23 PM. It was just a copy of the e-mail. Got your VM after I returned from lunch. That is my work number, and I prefer e-mails at work since there is not too much privacy and micromanagers running around if you know what I mean. I will call later with the # you left me.
Thanks,0 -
Time for some pictures. Everybody loves pictures.
Dale Cooper piston assembly. Weight-wise, not but a few grams difference between this cast piston and a custom forged one. I do want to point out something on this design.
Notice it has two oil rings. This isn't for added oil control, its to keep the piston aligned in the bore. Long stroked engines place alot of rocking force on the piston. The added lower oil ring keeps the piston in better alignment with the bore as the rod changes direction. Does nothing to add performance, but does alot to protect your bore from wear and add longevity to your ring/cylinder seal. Very durable setup for the long haul. Hats off to Dale for using this outfit on road travelling engines.
On any engine built for durability and perhaps mild performance that isn't going to see sustained high rpms - this is the piston I'd use, and did use.
Mark0 -
More pictures, and something I've noticed about Hudson blocks and combustion chambers.
I've taken alot of pictures of Hudson 308 topsides, and noticed something that probably explains the additional performance of the 7x relief.
While one would think that adjacent cylinders are mirror images of each other, thats not true of the Hudson wide block super six. They do have mirror image pairs, but they are at opposite ends of the block. 1 mirrors 6, 2 mirrors 5, 3 mirrors 4. So, you have 3 different valve arrangements in relation to the distance and radial position of the intake valve to the cylinder.
If you look at the picture, you can see the difference in the blackened area between the intake valve and the cylinder. The #1 intake valve is closer to its respective cylinder than #2, #3 intake valve is closer than #2 but further away than #1. You can also see pretty clearly how the shrouding of the deck encroaches on the valve periphery differently on the different intake valves.
It becomes obvious that Hudson had a hard time crowding all that valve into the block with the increased bore diameter of the Hornet. They moved things around till they fit. This makes the intake valves flow differently respective to the cylinder via the different intake valve positions.
This is probably why the factory came up with the 7x relief, as the intake gasket openings are uniformly the same, or mirror images all the way depending on which side the intake valve is on per cylinder. Merely relieving the block to match the gasket eliminated the variations in intake valve shrouding.
I at first thought the differences in valve distances from the cylinder was an optical illusion based upon the variable positions of the mill cut of the factory reliefs. It isn't. If you measure them, you get three different distances unique to the pairs I've already listed.
Oddly enough, the exhaust valves are more uniformly positioned and less shrouded by the factory relief than the intakes. Makes me wonder if relieving the exhaust side is really all that effective.
I'd sure like to hear some discussion regarding this, particularly from the more experianced Hudson builders.
Mark.0 -
Hasn't this been a great thread? Look who all has got involved and all the different ideas thrown out. I had a wonderful talk with Randy Maas last night for about an hour and a half. What a fascinating guy, he does everything and is willing to share his knowledge and ideas. I am really excited about getting this thing done and running. Just hope I can find a machinist that can do some of the tricks he shared with me.0
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Now the question is what are all those stars that are after the pages? never seen thoise before.0
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464Saloon wrote:Now the question is what are all those stars that are after the pages? never seen thoise before.
I'll second this is an excellent thread - makes me want to have a Hudson with a decent flathead in it to play around with!
The stars are rating points for the thread - if you explore the top of the page there is a toolbar rating a thread is a choice you can make.
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So who put the stars there? I started the thread but I didn't put the stars there.0
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464Saloon wrote:So who put the stars there? I started the thread but I didn't put the stars there.
Anyone can rate the thread - each vote tallies then displays an average # of stars if you mouseover the stars it will tell you how many people have rated the thread.0 -
Learn something every day. I am so proud of myself with this thread I went and rated myself.;) I did get an e-mail from Dany Spring who is running a 353 stroker and Randy's super street cam. He said he runs low 17's with that combination. Sounds slow as a brick doesn't it? I know the power to weight ratio with that is far better than with my car. It just didn't feel that slow. Makes me feel like after all this work I am not going to have any faster than a car in the 18's or so.
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Hudson308 wrote:One thing to remember is that even though the 308 has a longer stroke than a 500 Caddy, the connecting rod is also much longer than usual. This means that the rod-to-stroke ratio is among the best ever produced. Smoky Yunick used to preach on the virtues of rod-to-stroke to any one who would listen, because it translates into the percentage of the power stroke that force is applied downward on the piston, rather than sideways. Thus side loads on a 308 piston skirt are not as much as one would think by simply looking at stroke numbers alone. 400SBC side loads, for example, are much higher with the stock length rods than a 308, even though it has a slightly shorter stroke. This is why 383 or 400SBC motors make more power (and last longer) when using the longer 350 rods and custom pistons.
This is all true, and no arguments from me. What causes the Hudson piston to rock is the compression height of the piston and the distance of the ring pack from the wrist pin. This rather long distance in comparison with a 350 chevrolet gives the rod a chance to cock the piston. The shorter the distance from the rings to the wrist pin, the less this force applies.
The Hudson was made to stroke and could stand even a longer rod than its already outstanding rod length. Its one of the few engines I've messed with that you had room to both stroke it heavily, and still be able to have a custom rod and piston made to bring its rod ratio back into optimum range. The stock rod is still fine with a stroker crank, but since we're throwing out possibilities I'd just note some of the outstanding possibilities out there.
I know Uncommon Engineering once offered Carillo rods, I don't know why you'd pay that much money for a custom set of rods and not get them as long as you could for whatever stroke combination you were going to run or may ever run sometime in the future.
I stuck with the 5" stroke crank just because that works out well with the stock rods - still well within Smokey's optimum numbers.
I love Hudsons.
Mark0 -
Rob, You have some very good info on the Moving parts of the Hudson engine. So here is some of the block mods.that we do when building the stepdown engine. ( you may know them ) The main oil supply that is cast in block is Tapped with a 3/8 pipe tap front and rear and a 3/8 allen-head plug is installed with sealer. The front plug is drilled to 1/16 in the center before it is installed when using the double-roller chain setup. this feeds a little more lube to the chain. (some chains get very little lube to the center pin of the link assembly) And have not had any oil leaks at the crank seal with this set-up.
The upper and lower cam lifter bores get a slight chamfer (a very small 45 degree) this helps keep more oil on the lifter. That sharp edge wipes the oil away when the cam lobe lifts the lifter to one side as it moves the lifter up in its bore. ( you can see this wear on used lifters at the lower part of it.
The front and rear main caps are cleaned and are oil free when installed,then the D-shaped packing holes are filled with High Temp. Silicone sealer using a small plastic tube slipped over the adaptor so you can insert the tube to the lower part of the holes and pull the tube up as the hole is being filled. This seals the oil on front and rear main caps.
There is a 3/8 hole at the rear of the block at about 2 oclock that goes into the valve spring area and is used as a bell housing bolt. Use some sealer on this bolt or half fill the hole with RTV from the inside. The oil can leak out of this bolt hole then leak down between the rear adaptor plate and will look like the leak is comming from the crank seal or the main cap sides.
Some of the 3/8 and 5/16 bolts on the Chain cover and the motor mount adaptor go into the engine oil splash area and will seep out of the bolt washer so we use sealer on all front bolts in this area.
The oil pan and timing cover gets the Fender Bolts the flat washer is part of the bolt head they will not cut into the metal as do lock washers. ( some of the older auto trans use this type on there oil pans)
Hope this helps as it has us in the past. Rudy0 -
Good info Rudy. I need to get the rest of the block diassembled as a couple of your mods here I don't quite follow without having looked at these parts of the engine. The lifter bore modification and the main seal silicone filling I don't quite understand.0
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I was just looking at what Uncommon engineering does with their 308's. Any comments on rod bolts? They are using ARP's? Seems like a smart move over reusing the 53 year old ones. Has anyone done any porting work with the exhaust side? Looks like some teardropping could be done around the guide, but something bothers me as the exhaust has a lot of metal around the guide but not the intake.0
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464Saloon wrote:Learn something every day. I am so proud of myself with this thread I went and rated myself.;) I did get an e-mail from Dany Spring who is running a 353 stroker and Randy's super street cam. He said he runs low 17's with that combination. Sounds slow as a brick doesn't it? I know the power to weight ratio with that is far better than with my car. It just didn't feel that slow. Makes me feel like after all this work I am not going to have any faster than a car in the 18's or so.
Really that's nothing to be sad about, given the age of the technology and the limitation of a flathead engine.
Many things affect 1/4 mile times too, reaction time, transmission to rear end ratios, even tires and whether you hook up at the launch or not.
I ran my 1968 Chevelle for several summers at SIR and at the time it had a 1975 smogger 350, with a 8:5:1 compression, smog heads, cam and 4 brrl intake. TH350 combined with a sawblade rear end with moon gears (2:73) - I was able to degree the cam and play with the timing and jets and got a best time of 14:90 @ 98MPH in the 1/4
It used to be that once you got a car to a certain point it would cost 1000.00 more for every second of gain after that. I'd bet that formula is more like 2000.00 dollars these days :mad:
The nice thing about this forum is some of the cool work people are doing with turbos and superchargers applied to the flathead engines. I'd think that combination might get you a second or 3 faster if you can get it to apply the power band quickly and get out of the hole.
Besides, if you were going to race open class - handicapped style racing, it doesn't matter how fast you can go, its a matter of knowing your car and dialing in a consistent time.
I'll never forget my first "High School Drags" racing the Chevelle. I dialed it in at 15:10 knowing it would do under that and went up against and 11:00 pro-street 1968 Charger. With my lead, all I had to do was push it at the start and then just watch the rear view, as I got to the end of the 1/4 I just tapped my brakes slightly - even though he was coming up on me fast - but it was just enough to not break out and beat the guy.
I remember getting back to the pits and staging for the next run and watching this guy pull back into the parking area (time to go home for him:( )- p.o'd to all get out about losing to me and my "slow" car. PRICELESS!
In fact this picture was taken that very day up at SIR, circa 1980 - gawd I'm getting old!
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I guess you have not read Walt Mordenti's Hudson traveling stories. I rebuilt my engine in 1998, found a new speedometer, zero miles, and today it reads 104,050 miles. That makes it more than a every day traveler. So far 9 trips across this country, coast to coast and still on the same engine as I rebuilt it. Rob has seen this car and he knows it will fly. I'm telling Rob to build a good stock engine and just clean up the ports, match the manifolds to the block and fly. My engine will cruise 500 miles a day for 6 days to reach Connecticut from San Francisco and at times, top speed 90 plus. Gas mileage, 18 to 22, just check with someone that does the Laughlin run. Who needs all that junk. I have air condition, power rack and pinion and a 2.73 Dana rear and still fly up hills to 14,000 feet. Ask anyone that follows me. Do as I say Rob and you will surprise a lot of people. Walt.0
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I plan to get the rest of the motor apart today so my machinist can at least get the block cleaned up and see what condition it is in. Randy is going to get a parts list together for me hopefully by Monday.
Rudy, I would like a little more detail on your oiling improvements as I am not sure I follow it all.
Walt, I have considered your advice and have steered away from some of my wild ideas I originally proposed, as it is not going to be a race car and most of the driving will be freeway flying to club events and shows. I just figure since I have to go through the motor,I might as well make some improvements and updates to a 53 year old engine while I can.0 -
Rob, There is a little confusion here. The low 17's to high 16's are in my wife's '40. It has a 1/16 over 308 with Randy's super street cam, a clifford header, and a 4bbl carb.
The stroker in the 41 coupe has run as fast as 14.66 at 94 mph. Randy's car is MUCH quicker than this due to his extensive experimentation and tuning.I hope to someday get my car to run in the 13's, but I'm not there yet.
Dany0 -
springspeeddemon wrote:Rob, There is a little confusion here. The low 17's to high 16's are in my wife's '40. It has a 1/16 over 308 with Randy's super street cam, a clifford header, and a 4bbl carb.
The stroker in the 41 coupe has run as fast as 14.66 at 94 mph. Randy's car is MUCH quicker than this due to his extensive experimentation and tuning.I hope to someday get my car to run in the 13's, but I'm not there yet.
Dany
Dany,
I keep waiting for your TVM injection units on a weber intake.
Couple that with a Paxton SN 60 or 90, I think the crown may pass into your hands!
Your wife's car had the 7x intakes / stock exhaust valves - or am I thinking of another engine you have?
Mark0 -
springspeeddemon wrote:Rob, There is a little confusion here. The low 17's to high 16's are in my wife's '40. It has a 1/16 over 308 with Randy's super street cam, a clifford header, and a 4bbl carb.
The stroker in the 41 coupe has run as fast as 14.66 at 94 mph. Randy's car is MUCH quicker than this due to his extensive experimentation and tuning.I hope to someday get my car to run in the 13's, but I'm not there yet.
Dany
Sorry Dany for the confusion. I sent you another e-mail with a couple of questions.
Thanks,
Rob0 -
Mark, That is correct on the 7X intake and stock exhaust valvas.
Dany0 -
Well it wasn't pretty when it came apart. #2 came out in two pieces and #5 appears to be a forged unit. If I get time and once again can remember or find my instructions for posting, I will throw them up. At the machinist now to see if there is any other bad news. Probably will have to sleeve #2 from the scoring.It is amazing with a broken oil pump pressure spring,a 262 head gasket being slammed by the pistons and the one heavier forged piston,that it ran and lasted as long as it did. If I had any idea what was hidden in that block,I would have never attempted driving it all the way to the Western Regional!0
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Does anyone have any pics of 7X modified reliefs on the block, or before and after 7X modification?0
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