Testing for leaks in a 308

Hudsy Wudsy
Senior Contributor
In another current thread I asked for advice about how to ship an engine. I'd like, if you fellas don't mind, to talk a little bit about that engine. It's a 68,000 mile '53 Twin-H 308 in a car that I'm likely going to part out. This car sat since the sixties, though the engine never froze up in all of that time. I rebuilt the carbs and the fuel pump, put new plugs in it and fired it up. One of the frost plugs was leaky, so I used that as an opportunity to replace them all and hose out the inside of the block a little. As most of you know, a lot of Hudson's got put into hibernation with leaking headgaskets. A leaky headgasket is one of the first things that you think of when you happen across a Hudson engine that's froze up from sitting. I'm not saying, of course, that it's the only cause of an engine freezing up over time, but it's a common enough one with Hudsons. Anyway, I was encouraged that this one wasn't froze when I found it and pleased when it started fairly easily and ran great. After the engine had been started and run on several occasions, I went out one day and started it, let it run until fairly warm and then did a little test that I would like to ask your opinion of. I took off the thermostat housing and thermostat and confirmed that the coolant was up to the top of the cylinder head. Because the place where the thermostat is positioned is the very front of the engine and the engine sits at a slant, I deemed that to be the highest point in the cooling system (excluding the radiator, of course). I then took the fan belt off of the engine so that the water pump wouldn't churn up the coolant while I watched it in the hole where the thermostat had been. I then fired up the engine and ran it for a time (not long enough to do any damage) at different RPMs to see if I could detect any bubbles migrating up through the fluid to the place (thermostat hole) I was watching. I never saw a one. Nada, zip nothing. The coolant simply sat there motonless as if the engine wasn't even running. Besides leaky head gaskets (this 308, by the way has the aluminum head) being a potential issue with these engines, there's the much larger concern of cracks in the block, usually around the valve area. Here I'm not telling any of you what you don't already know. My point is this, I'll probably offer this engine (with or without it's Hydramatic) later on this summer on ebay and I'd like to feel as confident as I can about it's condition when I do. There's always a chance, even, that it could end up in the hands of someone who is a member of this board. Can you gentlemen offer any other ideas that I might address to ensure that the next owner gets a great engine and not a leaker? I'd appreciate your opinions.
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Comments
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You might want to check out what a local machine shop would charge to mangaflux the block.0
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Dave53-7C wrote:You might want to check out what a local machine shop would charge to mangaflux the block.
Dave, I don't think I care to pull the head if I can avoid it. I'm not expecting to get rich on this one. But, let me ask you this, if I were to pull the head and take it to a shop for magnafluxing wouldn't I also have to pull the valves to get an accurate asessment?0 -
Checking the cooling system for exhaust gas is the best/easiest way to do it. A lot of good shops have a tube with a bulb on one end and a rubber plug to hold the tube in the rad neck.. You put clear water in the cooling system. Some magic fluid in the tube. Start the car and let it warm up completely. Plug the tube into the rad neck. Pump the bulb and watch the fluid. IF the fluid changes color, there is exhaust in the water...and a leak in th head, head gasket or a cracked block. I bought one of the kits a while back from my local NAPA. not cheep but I have used it a bunch of times on my cars and cars belonging to local HET members.
Works well and sure takes all the guess work out of the problem.0 -
EssexAdv wrote:Checking the cooling system for exhaust gas is the best/easiest way to do it. A lot of good shops have a tube with a bulb on one end and a rubber plug to hold the tube in the rad neck.. You put clear water in the cooling system. Some magic fluid in the tube. Start the car and let it warm up completely. Plug the tube into the rad neck. Pump the bulb and watch the fluid. IF the fluid changes color, there is exhaust in the water...and a leak in th head, head gasket or a cracked block. I bought one of the kits a while back from my local NAPA. not cheep but I have used it a bunch of times on my cars and cars belonging to local HET members.
Works well and sure takes all the guess work out of the problem.
Interesting! I've never heard of this item before. I'll most certainly check it out. Thank you.0 -
James P. wrote:Dave, I don't think I care to pull the head if I can avoid it. I'm not expecting to get rich on this one. But, let me ask you this, if I were to pull the head and take it to a shop for magnafluxing wouldn't I also have to pull the valves to get an accurate asessment?
James P,
Actually, you'd want to send the whole engine out to be magnafluxed. If that is more effort that you're interested in, just sell the engine "As Is" and be done with it.0 -
I understood that the whole engine would have to be sent to the shop. I was just expressing my reluctance to disassemble a running 68,000 mile engine. Upon reflection though, your way might be the best. A valve job and de-carbonizing would be appropriate at these miles. Thank you, Dave, for your thoughts.0
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James,
Perhaps I'm confused. However, if your have a 50+ year old used 308, even if it runs, any reasonable person in the market for such an engine should understand that it will need work. So, you're faced with two choices. Do nothing and sell it "As Is or have it completely rebuilt. Why bother doing only some work when more than you think is probably required? If it's not broke, don't fix it.0 -
Dave, if you're confused it's probably because I'm hopelessly naive. Why would a person rebuild a good running 68,000 mile Hornet engine? Why are people so interested in that 17,000 mile eight cylinder that gets talked about on this forum from time to time if it would have to be rebuilt?0
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Hi, The Test Here Is Called A Tee Kay Tester. It Pick's Up Any Co2 Gas In The Cooling System. Only Takes 30 Seconds To Carry Out And Would Cost Next To Nothing-about $15 Is What I Charge..0
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James P. wrote:Dave, if you're confused it's probably because I'm hopelessly naive. Why would a person rebuild a good running 68,000 mile Hornet engine? Why are people so interested in that 17,000 mile eight cylinder that gets talked about on this forum from time to time if it would have to be rebuilt?
If the engine you have runs well, just sell it and be done with it. A person would rebuild a good running 68,000 mile engine because it has 68,000 miles and is 50+ years old. I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would go through the effort and expense of pulling a used engine from a collector car only to install another used one. At the very least, one would want to break the engine down to check tollerances and replace gaskets. As far as the 17,000 mile engine goes, ask the people who have expressed interest in it.0 -
Where are you located James P?0
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I disagree. If I were in the market, I would buy it to put in my '52 Hornet Sedan. I did just what Dave suggested, bought a running engine and trans to get the old girl 'motivated' only. If it lasts a couple of years, so much the better. I have two '56 308s and a '52 262 in the garage already that need rebuilding.
Sell your motor 'as-is' with the full disclosure of what you've done to check it out. Somebody out there will be tickled to death to get it. It might get another Hudson on the road that wouldn't happened due to somebody with financial issues. Mark's right, where are you? I still might be interested...0 -
I have to confess at this point that I've been baiting Dave a little bit because he's been so renentful that I would even consider an engine that has sat for forty years as usable. Dave, most recently you've implied that me or, at least, my expectations weren't "reasonable". I've been waiting for some concrete example of what you think changes within an engine that sits for a prolonged period. If you'll recall, my only question was whether anyone could offer other suggestions for testing for cracks in a 308 engine because it's an issue that a potential buyer would want addressed as fully as possible. Mr Mendenhall addressed that quite well, which I appreciate. The truth is in my forty-two years of buying and selling cars, I've ressurected many barn, field and backyard cars. It was, in fact, something a of hobby within a hobby for me. Though I kept several such cars for lengths of time, for me there has always been money to be made buying a dormant car and getting it running, washed, licensed and drivable, and then selling it to someone to restore. No matter how much work a car will need eventually, guys love to be able to drive it home (or at lest around the block) when they buy it. In my experience I've found that very little changes within an engine that sits for prolonged periods. Front and rear seals dry out and have to be replaced if the engine has sat for many, many years. Fortunately, this particular engine never froze from sitting, but even still, piston rings can be initially reluctant to seal against the cylinder walls because they get stuck to their lands in the pistons, but this usually clears up when some miles are put on the engine. I've been fortunate to have not had much trouble with valves that were frozen up, but that can happen and when it does, care must be taken to get everthing moving freely before any attempt to start the engine. Of course carbuetors, fuel pumps, gas tanks and flexible lines need to be dealt with, as well. Those things having been said, if it ran when it was parked it, it will run again. The only other things that I've run into other than the aforementioned is mouse-eaten wiring and bushings in need of oil in the peripherals(distributors, water pumps, starters and generators). In short, nothing in my experience condemns an engine because it's sat for a prolonged period of time and, most certainly, no mystical process takes place that weakens connecting rods, softens bearings or any other metal. This particular 308 has many, many great miles left in it and I think that it's next owner will run it with confidence knowing that it's a factory engine, assembled by Hudson. The engine is in Minnesota and I'll give this board a heads up when I decide to list in a couple of months.0
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Minnesota
That's just my luck.0 -
James,
It matters not to me what, if anything, you do with that engine. If you consider it useable, that's peachy. But why would you think that a potential buyer is only interested in whether or not the block is cracked? And to be clear on something, I never implied that you or your expectations were unreasonable. I was refering to someone buying a used engine. If you want a good reason to rebuild an engine that has not been used in 40 years, consider that the bearings can be mystically damaged by having sat in oil that may have had a high acid and/or moisture content. Although it might come as a surprise to you, I too have many years of experience with cars. However, I don't represent my knowledge and experience to be peerless. In this instance, I was simply offering my opinions. If you don't agree with them, that's fine. Have a nice life.0
This discussion has been closed.
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