Headlight problems!

Jon B
Jon B Administrator
edited November -1 in HUDSON
Three weeks ago I started the car, turned the headlight switch, and blew out both halogen headlight bulbs.



Anyone have some troubleshooting ideas? These things are expensive and I don't want to go through this again!



My '37 is a 6-volt, and the headlights are run off a dual relay (with 30 amp circuit breaker I believe). As far as I know all components leading up to the bulbs, are still functioning. (I just pulled one of the bulbs out this morning and sure enough, both filaments are melted.) The parking lights still work, but I did not think to check the tail / brake lights when I was over at the garage.



All thoughts will be appreciated!
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Comments

  • Clutchguy
    Clutchguy Senior Contributor
    That car is just JUNK anyway,have you ever thought about parting it out??? LOL,I have no idea!! Both bulbs at the same time,sounds like a short in the switch or maybe even the dimmer???Maybe the headlight relay is shorted out,Just a thought Jon,CU Soon
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Sounds like a short that caused the headlight bulb filaments to act as fuses. Get out the old VOM and start checking the wiring, switches, relay, etc. Isn't it about time for a "new" car anyway? :D
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Clutch guy wrote:
    That car is just JUNK anyway,have you ever thought about parting it out??? LOL,I have no idea!! Both bulbs at the same time,sounds like a short in the switch or maybe even the dimmer???Maybe the headlight relay is shorted out,Just a thought Jon,CU Soon



    Yeah Jon,



    with all of the moderator duties you got, why don't you just send me your 37, and I'll take care of the headlights, and anything else. I'll solve the problem.



    Seriously, Doug might be on the right track, I think the key is both bulbs blew out, something had to seriously short out, hitting both bulbs at the same time. Both elements, you figure it could have been the switch or dimmer, high beam circuit, wow, I think that you got a lot of checking to do.



    Best of luck, make sure you tell us what it was, once you find what was wrong.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    they have 6v halogen bulbs???
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    First of all , let's get our terms sorted out. A "short" will not cause the bulbs to blow, but will melt the fuse. The only thing that will make the bulbs blow is over-voltage. You probably need to get your regulator adjusted. A short-circuit is just that, one that goes direct to earth, instead of through a reistance such as lights, ignition, etc. resulting in excess current, which will either blow the fuse or melt the wires if there is no fuse. An open circuit is a break in the wiring which will result in no current flowing, and a high-resistance circuit, such as dirt contacts or switch terminals, will result in reduced voltage, and dim lights or poor ignition. It is possible that you had a bad contact at the battery posts, as an open circuit here when the engine is running will cause a gross over-voltage situation in the rest of the electrical circuits, as the battery is the balancing system for the regulator. Without that in the circuit the voltage rises to a destructive level in all the rest of the circuits. Here endeth the lesson! Good luck Jon.

    Geoff.
  • Jon B
    Jon B Administrator
    So if there was indeed a 'spike' of massive voltage, is there some component I could place in the circuit to 'save' the lights next time? Would a mere fuse protect my lamps? (The only 'fuse' now on the system is the 30 amp circuit breaker in the dual relay. The normal lighting fuse, on the light switch, no longer protects the headlamps, since their power now comes directly from the relay.)
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Good points Geoff! IMO, fuses are a much better safety valve than circuit breakers. Sometimes, old breakers will latch "on" and not trip when needed.
  • Huddy42
    Huddy42 Senior Contributor
    Jon,

    I fitted halogen bulbs to me 1942 Hudson, had the same problem, I don't think these bulbs are suitable for our older cars, I have gone back to the old sealed beams and have not had a problem in 3 or 4 years. That is were I'll stay, as you say these bulbs are very expensive and I'm not going down that raod again.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    I doubt that a fuse will solve the problem, because they are too slow blowing to save the bulbs. It is most likely the voltage regulator, those old units tended to be bit spikey, as amyone with an ammeter fitted will notice - the needle tends to swing around quite a bit as the voltage coil points oscillate. I would recommend fitting a later model generator and regulator, say off a '53 -'54 model, these were much better than the 3 brush and regulator system used in '37. Also I would double check if you have one of those rotary battery isolators, that it is connecting very firmly. As I said, any break in the main circuit back to the battery will cause a disastrous rise in voltage. And that is one of the failings of the goo old "idiot lights" used by Hudson from '34 onwards, you get no indication of whether the generator is working correctly, just that it is charging when the light goes out.

    Geoff.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Geoff, Good point about the spikey old regulators.
  • Jon B
    Jon B Administrator
    Thanks for the though, Rick. I'm really not an expert on things electrical, so...



    If indeed the lamps 'blew' because of some 'spike' of electricity that exceeded 6 volts, then would it help to wire one of these 12-to-6-volt resistors between the relay and the headlights?



    (Power to the lights comes directly from the Batt terminal on the voltage regulator, through the relay, to the lights. The dash switch and dimmer switch only serve to signal the relay what to do.)



    Indeed, if a resistor holds power to 6 volts, would it make sense to put several of these into the system? Assuming the regulator is at fault (and I replace it with a NOS one), then would resistors prevent the frying of other components, should the new regulator fail?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Jon, Me thinks you better listen to what Geoff is telling you. A 6v gen. will put out more than 6v is it is not regulated to. Resistors and fuses wont cure your problem, but what he is saying is very very true.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Geoffs on the right track Jon, when the reg points open for just a split second, it can cause a voltage spike as hi as 30 to 50 volts. Didn't realize that the halogen bulbs were that fragile, but evidently they'll melt under those conditions. Ever consider a nice sealed beam conversion? Might be cheaper in the long run. Have you checked the grounds on your lamp buckets? Could cause the same thing to happen but at a reduced voltage. Also the grounds from the socket to the bucket.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Also Jon, I'd suggest installing an ammeter. An underdash one would be fine. Use 10ga wire and insert into wire between starter solenoid & Bat terminal on regulator. A 30 or 40 amp unit would be fine & if it reads backwards when you're done, just reverse the connections on it. May save you some grief later on.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Jon,



    using the same bulbs as you I installed an 8V battery and blam both headlight bulbs fried instantly . They are sensitive to anything over 6V no matter for how long. Don't know if that helps but when you find the right way to regulator the upper voltage to 6V let me know so I can do the same.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    I'm certainly no expert on this subject. Have you thought about getting in touch with Daniel Stern Lighting? Those folks seem to be very knowledgable about the 6 volt halogens, and may have dealt with this problem before.
    Bob
  • hudsontech
    hudsontech Senior Contributor
    Jon B wrote:
    Three weeks ago I started the car, turned the headlight switch, and blew out both halogen headlight bulbs.



    Anyone have some troubleshooting ideas? These things are expensive and I don't want to go through this again!



    My '37 is a 6-volt, and the headlights are run off a dual relay (with 30 amp circuit breaker I believe). As far as I know all components leading up to the bulbs, are still functioning. (I just pulled one of the bulbs out this morning and sure enough, both filaments are melted.) The parking lights still work, but I did not think to check the tail / brake lights when I was over at the garage.



    All thoughts will be appreciated!





    Cheapest way around the problem is NOT to drive after dark!!!



    Hudsonly,

    Alex B :D
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Jon B wrote:
    Three weeks ago I started the car, turned the headlight switch, and blew out both halogen headlight bulbs.



    Anyone have some troubleshooting ideas? These things are expensive and I don't want to go through this again!



    My '37 is a 6-volt, and the headlights are run off a dual relay (with 30 amp circuit breaker I believe). As far as I know all components leading up to the bulbs, are still functioning. (I just pulled one of the bulbs out this morning and sure enough, both filaments are melted.) The parking lights still work, but I did not think to check the tail / brake lights when I was over at the garage.



    All thoughts will be appreciated!



    Lots of good advice when if comes to OVER VOLTAGE. The dual headlight relay with a voltage regulator at the out put will put an end to the disaster you experienced. The best method I can provide for you to get this device selected and into the car is find one of your local KAR KRAZY folks who is a radio or electronics tech. Ask this person to assist you in finding a proper voltage regulator... passive solid state device which can be placed into your lighting circuit. Electronics wholesalers and possibly a store like Radio Shack should have what you need.



    Good Luck Jon... One step forward ... and several back is the life of a KLASSIC KAR owner!
  • Jon B
    Jon B Administrator
    Thanks, Ken.....what precisely do you mean by a voltage regulator? The same thing that is now attached to my car's firewall? Is this the exact name by which I ask for it, at the Radio Shack? Does it need to be selected for the exact wattage or amperage used by the headlights?



    Mark Hudson has suggested using something called a 'Zener Diode' in the lighting circuit. It apparently has to be selected for the right voltage and amperage. Has anyone used one of these?
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    Zeners are indeed used in electronic circuits, but whether they come in high enough ratings for a headlight circuit I know not. Usually they are in an electronic circuit to act as a regulator for voltage sensitive devices. How they work is exactly like an ordinary diode, that will only pass a current one way. however a Zener is constructed so that when a voltage goes over the rating, it will "switch" into reverse mode, and shunt the excess voltage away, maintaining the designated circuit at the correct voltage. I serviced electric fence units for a few years, and they are used in these, but as I say , only in very low current application (milliamps).

    Geoff.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    For more info check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zener_diode
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    I found a really, really good article on zener diodes and uses. Better than the one I posted in chat last night.



    Handy little devices.



    http://www.opamp-electronics.com/tutorials/zener_diodes_3_03_09.htm



    I have yet to find one in the current range you'll need. I know they exist because the only time I was exposed to zener technology was in a lighting system on a battery-less motorcycle.



    What you'll be looking for is a zener diode used on a 1950-60ish British motorcycle. Conveiniently enough, they were 6v positive earth systems. I do not have, nor can I find at the moment, the amperage limit of these motorcycle zeners. Depending on the current limits, you may have to use one zener for each relay output - one for high beam and one for low.



    I sure wish I could find some numbers on these Lucas items. I'd also like to run halogen 6 volt headlights, but don't want them spontaneously popping out on the highway.



    Mark
  • Jon B
    Jon B Administrator
    Lucas? LUCAS?



    Uhh...isn't that what they call the "Prince of Darkness...."?
  • Clutchguy
    Clutchguy Senior Contributor
    Clutch guy wrote:
    That car is just JUNK anyway,have you ever thought about parting it out??? LOL,I have no idea!! Both bulbs at the same time,sounds like a short in the switch or maybe even the dimmer???Maybe the headlight relay is shorted out,Just a thought Jon,CU Soon



    Why are we trying to fix a car we are going to PART OUT???? The antenna is ttttttttttttttttooooo long,the engine emits to much emissions and it has an oil leak!!!! This vehicle must go!!!:confused:
  • SamJ
    SamJ Senior Contributor
    Sloop: This link may solve your problem. :cool:



    http://www.colonialcandle.com/
  • RonS
    RonS Senior Contributor
    You might want to call Fifth Ave. Auto Parts in Kansas and speak with Randy Rundle. He makes headlight relays for 6v ( and others) cars .I have one on my 53 Hornet.Properly installed there should be no more than 1 volt passing through the dash switch and they use a 25 amp inline fuse between the batt and the relay.There is a common "culpret" here, i.e. the relay, circuit breaker,ground or the dimmer switch among others. Ask Randy. The relay that you have might not be able to handle the larger current draw of the halogen lamps.Ron
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    The problem is not one of being able to handle the current Ron, but of controlling any "over-voltage" situation, that is too much current going through the lamps, not too little.

    Geoff.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Jon B wrote:
    Thanks, Ken.....what precisely do you mean by a voltage regulator? The same thing that is now attached to my car's firewall? Is this the exact name by which I ask for it, at the Radio Shack? Does it need to be selected for the exact wattage or amperage used by the headlights?



    Mark Hudson has suggested using something called a 'Zener Diode' in the lighting circuit. It apparently has to be selected for the right voltage and amperage. Has anyone used one of these?



    Jon. I have posted on this forum the use of zener diodes several times in 6v to 12v conversions. I have used them for over 20 years. They work and are avaliable in the proper curent values for your headlamps
  • Clutchguy
    Clutchguy Senior Contributor
    SamJ wrote:
    Sloop: This link may solve your problem. :cool:



    http://www.colonialcandle.com/



    NOW THAT IS A SOLUTION!!!!!!
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    edited November 2013
    Manufacturer, part no., cost, availability?

    Acually they are easily found at electronic sales houses. Just tell them what amperage you need. They are rated at amperage needed, Just ask for what you need. Thats about all you need to do, except mount it on a heat sink.
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