Body Flex in step-downs? & Door latch issue.
I was thinking about why my hood latch jammed, and the only thing I'd done since was to push the car into the garage with the towbar attached, then take the towbar off and I left the car alone for a couple days.
Since then I've jacked it up and put a jackstand under the left front, and it appears the left door is sagging about an inch at the back, more than it did before.
So I am wondering if these cars have some tendency to flex structurally? This car has some rocker panel rust, but the frame rails and so on all appear to be sound in the front of the car.
I know that to some that may sound farfetched, but I did read in a tech column in a magazine that someone who'd jacked up his '92 Firebird in an odd way, not using the factory recommended jacking points, suddenly had doors that were out of alignment and wouldn't close properly.
It seems to me that if there's some flex in the car, then taking the weight of the towbar off and letting it sit for a couple days, might have let it spring back into place and thus the hood latch pin becomes aligned properly again and it opens for me.
One of the solutions offered the Firebird owner was to just wait and see if the car would snap back on it's own, as well.
While I am at it, the left door refuses to stay closed once latched. Does the round catch on the door have to be at the very top of the track on the quarter, to hold it closed? Everything seems to work okay, there just is nothing to hold the door closed. I'm thinking it's just a touch out of alignment.
Since then I've jacked it up and put a jackstand under the left front, and it appears the left door is sagging about an inch at the back, more than it did before.
So I am wondering if these cars have some tendency to flex structurally? This car has some rocker panel rust, but the frame rails and so on all appear to be sound in the front of the car.
I know that to some that may sound farfetched, but I did read in a tech column in a magazine that someone who'd jacked up his '92 Firebird in an odd way, not using the factory recommended jacking points, suddenly had doors that were out of alignment and wouldn't close properly.
It seems to me that if there's some flex in the car, then taking the weight of the towbar off and letting it sit for a couple days, might have let it spring back into place and thus the hood latch pin becomes aligned properly again and it opens for me.
One of the solutions offered the Firebird owner was to just wait and see if the car would snap back on it's own, as well.
While I am at it, the left door refuses to stay closed once latched. Does the round catch on the door have to be at the very top of the track on the quarter, to hold it closed? Everything seems to work okay, there just is nothing to hold the door closed. I'm thinking it's just a touch out of alignment.
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I'm wondering how much rust you have in your perimeter frame.
When Hudson folks talk about frames, its not the frame members that hold your front suspension nor your rear suspension to the car. We are talking about the frame pieces that are begin directly behind your front wheels and follow the outer edge of the underside completely around the perimeter of the car's body.
That is the main structural frame under the car. If this perimeter frame is weak, rusted, or damaged - your car is not as rigid as its supposed to be.
I know its hard to swallow, but your car sounds as if the perimeter frame is not up to par - your door should not sag like that when jacked up.
Mark0 -
Yup, check that rear perimeter frame very carefully before you invest anymore time and money into this Hudson! That frame is the Achilles Heel of Hudsons. If it's in good shape, you have an unusually solid vehicle. But if it isn't, you have trouble on your hands, and a great deal of welding to do.
Of course you may be adept at frame repair and if so, be advised that the entire rear quarter panel of the Step-Downs (up to 1954 I think) can simply be unbolted, giving you a 'see through' car and very easy access to the entire rear perimeter frame. That's a 'plus' about these cars.0 -
An example to reinforce hudsonator's comments, I am doing some maintenance before heading to Auburn and my Hollywood is on one jackstand right now and the door on the side I am working on opens and closes as it should. assuming your car is a coupe or sedan it should be even stiffer in this area than my hardtop. As John mentioned, 48-53's will allow access for assesment and repair by unbolting both the quarters and the rockers. the frame sections forward of the rear wheels are pretty simple and could be replaced much easier than the complex curves of the rear portions.0
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The perimiter frame in my Hornet is not nearly as good as I'd like it to be (at the front) but I've had that car very unevenly jacked up for a long period of time and the doors shut just fine both on and off the jacks. But, and you may want to check this, the right rear door has a crack at the bottom under the lower hinge and it sags just the way yours does. I've heard of another car with the same issue so maybe that is a Hudson problem.0
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When I first got my 52 coupe, I wheeled it into the shop to put it up on jackstands. Did the front first, by jacking under the middle, lowering it onto the jackstands on both sides, and then started jacking one side of the rear. The rear came up less than a quarter inch before the other side began coming up as well. The point of all this is that the structure should be VERY rigid, at least if it has not been compromised by rust or damage.0
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Here's a thought (from someone who doesn't own a StepDown, and therefore shouldn't be offering suggestions!): don't the door posts (between front and rear doors) sometimes become detached from the bottom frame? If so, could that weaken the body and cause a slight sag as described?
(Gad, we must be scaring poor Pontiac59 to death with all this conjecture about how Hudsons might sag! Actually, so long as the perimeter frame is in good shape, I believe the StepDown body is actually one of the strongest of the era. I can't tell you how many accidents I've read about, over the past 35 years, in which a StepDown driver walked away from an incredible crash due to the superlative design and construction of the unit body.)0 -
The door posts in the stepdown four door sedans are inherently weak, though I wouldn't think that that alone would alow the movement Pontiac59 has described. You can see the posts flex if your doors are hard to latch, but they wouldn't cause the doors to sag. Would think that pulling the rocker panels is in order first. Walt-LA.0
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I should make it more clear that this door would not latch the day I bought the car, and I tied it shut with a rope. It may be that the door is out of alignment and has been right along. The body lines do not quite match at the rear of the left door. You shut it and the latch on the door seems to work okay, but then it pulls back open as though it's not being held by anything. The right door latches correctly. The only other difference I see in the two door latches is the female side on the left body has a crack in the top, but since niether part of the latch moves any I have to think that's not the issue.
My jackstand is positioned just ahead of the front suspension. My little floor jack doesn't go up very high, so I used a '69 Toronado bumper jack (has a big hook) on the bumper. It hooks well where there is a steel tab behind the bottom of the bumper (the factory jack location?), but I hate to run those things higher than I have to and when it started getting really stiff I stopped and put the stand under it. The left tire is just touching the ground, I can rotate it easily.
There is some rust in the bottom left rocker area; what feels like a thin metal cover (part of the rocker?) has a couple of small holes and was full of dirt inside. It basically extends the front 9" or so, under the fender. I haven't poked it too much more because to get to the oil pan drain I have to slide under this area, and I thought it would be better to wait and poke around on that after I don't have to slide right under it.
This has me curious just what the frame structure looks like on one of these, anyone have a link or a source to a diagram of one?0 -
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Hey, Pontiac, just a thought....have you carefully inspected the hinges on the door, especially where they enter the door post? Could the hinge mounting point be rusted so that the door is hanging crooked?0
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The frames are very rigid unless they are structurally weak.
When I have my gutted car sitting on 4 jack stands I can pick up one side of the car with the rear bumper mounts by hand!
My guess is your frame is fine and that the door hinge mounting point(s) on the door side should show that the metal is split or rusting causing the door to sag.
Or the hinge itself could be damaged.
Very typical of any older car.
Check it out and I'd bet thats your problem.0 -
That may well be. There is some rust in that area, and it was hauled on a rollback about 100 miles back and forth to the show I found it at and towed flat by me another 50 to bring it home with no other appreciable changes in door or trunk opening.
Now the only question that remains, is the door sag what keeps the door from latching shut?
I never did find any sludge in the pan, I think I'm going to put a quart of mystery oil or something in it, let it sit a few days, drain that and add my SAE30 -0 -
pontiac59 wrote:That may well be. There is some rust in that area, and it was hauled on a rollback about 100 miles back and forth to the show I found it at and towed flat by me another 50 to bring it home with no other appreciable changes in door or trunk opening.
Now the only question that remains, is the door sag what keeps the door from latching shut?
I never did find any sludge in the pan, I think I'm going to put a quart of mystery oil or something in it, let it sit a few days, drain that and add my SAE30 -
I'd bet the latch is worn out on the door frame and is why it wont latch.
If the door is open a couple of inches - reach down and grab the bottom edge of the door and pull up vertically. If the hinges/hinge pins are weak or door is split or rusted out at the hinge mounting points you will be able to move it up and down.
I'll take some pictures of my right rear door to give you an example and post them later tonight.0 -
Well, I did look at the piece on the body. It does have a crack in the top, but given the way it latches, the round piece on the door slides up in the latch on the body, if the door drops down, it would just come open. It doesn't seem to be worn any more than the other side. And the crack runs between two of the screws that mount it to the body, so none of it moves anywhere.0
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My 54 coupe door did this but it was not sagging. I had to slam the door to get it to latch securely. Found out that someone had put the wrong rubber seal around the door and it was too thick. I removed the rubber and the door shut just fine...Now to get the right stuff...Unfortunately I did not figure this out until I had cracked a window.
Bob0 -
To me, this style of latch looks like it's really prone to misalignment issues - in, out, up, down. (In the case of the gasket, it caused a misalignment too far out). That in itself isn't a huge deal, but if I was going to drive one daily I'd think about adding some bear-claw type latches - just on the basis that if I was ever hit by someone I wouldn't want the doors to come open on me.
If there's no apparent rust issues with the lower hinge I'll try and adjust it and see what happens -0
This discussion has been closed.
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