Carburator questions
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I have been working with these WA-1 carbs now and I am wondering what is the difference in the different numbered models. I am guessing the body is the same for all the different models so I think it must be jetting that determines which is which. I don't know for sure that I am right in my assumptions though. Why would a 749 model be stronger than a 968S or 2113. Why have a 968S or 2113 if one already works fine. I think both my carbs are 968S carbs but since only one has a tag and neither has numbers I can see on their bodies, I wonder if there is a way to tell what a carb actually is if the tag is missing.
Harry
Harry
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Harry, turn it over ans seeif there are any numbers stamped on the bottom where it fits the intake . I found some of the Carters have numbers the people at Terrell can intepret to order a kit0
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Thank you, I'll look for those numbers.
How many different models of WA-1 carbs are there? Did only the 308 have the twin H set-up and did they change carb models every year and eventually evolve into the 968 and 2113. Was one carb more prevalent east of the Mississippi or did models on both sides of the country have both models of carbs. I think I've seen in other posts that earlier Hornets used different models of carbs. Which carb was on the 7X from the factory? I'm trying to educate myself and I'm hoping others have asked themselves these questions. Also why can't two different models be used on the same engine at the same time?
Harry0 -
Hi Harry as has been stated,WA-1 is a basic body, the diff #s are for diff jets/needles/linkage, etc. keep them the same so all cyldrs receive the same amt of fuel. As for the diff #'s--sometimes they are changed by the factory to be compatable with other changes in the car. As for the right one--level above sea level where it is operated at would have an influence,as would temperature,humidity on any given day. That stuff is for race people,don't go there. Put on the carb recomended for your engine and if it needs some minor adjustment to make your plugs burn clean that can be done by adjusting the needle height, Don't start wandering off into other things at this point. 2 carbs the same numbers,get it runnin good and then see if other things need to be done. I would not use the numbers on the bottoms,they may not be for your engine.0
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Harry Hill wrote:How many different models of WA-1 carbs are there? Also why can't two different models be used on the same engine at the same time?
Harry
My 1955 Motor's Auto Repair Manual lists 43 different model Carter WA-1 carburetors used by all car companies. Hudson used eight different model Carter WA-1 carburetors. You cann't use two different models Carter WA-1 carburetors on the same engine at the same time because each model carburetor is jetted different. This means the that each half of the engine would act different to detriment of performance and economy.0 -
37T, I don't plan on messing with them. I'm just trying to understand the differences. I don't think the factory would set up a bunch of different carbs for slight variables like humidity or temps. I think they would make a general carb and have different jet set ups for altitude. Maybe something for winter driving as compared to summer driving where temperature extremes might happen. Even at that one carb could do it all, there isn't a good reason for so many different models in the same years on the same engine. Unless of course the numbers progressed through the years as the carburetors evolved. Maybe valve size changed or valve timing as the engine came though the years. Or a change was made during a model run when problems developed.I know the 968S has a third check ball in the idle circuit to improve idling but I doubt that is the only difference between the 749, 968 and 2113. I've seen where different metering rods could be used to make the mixture richer or leaner but that could be done with one model number. Also, how do you know which carb is recommended for the car. I can see where the 55 Hornet used both the 968 and 2113, why? Are the throttle bodies all the same? Is it just the main body that changed? Maybe jet position changed in the throat. I need to look through these tech updates I got from Alex Burr and see if there is any information there.
Harry0 -
mars55 wrote:My 1955 Motor's Auto Repair Manual lists 43 different model Carter WA-1 carburetors used by all car companies. Hudson used eight different model Carter WA-1 carburetors. You cann't use two different models Carter WA-1 carburetors on the same engine at the same time because each model carburetor is jetted different. This means the that each half of the engine would act different to detriment of performance and economy.
Mars, this is strictly a hypothetical question. If the back cylinders on an engine run hotter wouldn't it be better if the back carb was jetted slightly richer. Or could the same thing be accomplished by running colder plugs in the back half?
Now on to real questions, did Hudson use all eight models in the 55 year. Were some for the Pacemaker, some the Jet and others the Hornet? I'm asking these questions to keep my mind occupied while I wait to replace this carb of mine. Eventually I want to build a bad ass engine to put into the eventual stepdown I plan on owning. What I'm doing now is good for me as I haven't really touched an auto engine for a lot of years and I needed these problems to wake up old memories. I know this engine of mine has too much blow by and probably needs rings. It isn't terrible and it doesn't smoke out the exhaust but the breather tube passes a little smoke. I don't think that will clear up when I get both carbs working correctly. I really like driving this car and I can feel it's potential occasionally. So I want to enjoy it for awhile before I tear the engine apart and do a rebuild. Learning about the different carbs is just part of the education process.
Harry0 -
Harry without nit picking it your pretty much correct, BUT, I see no need to become an expert on all of the reasons Hudson had when they changed something [ That is an entirely differant subject } or how to drop 2 tenths of a second off elapsed time on a drag strip to get your car operateing as it should,which was the original problem. You've gotten some awfull good help from the guys not only on what is wrong but what to do and where to get parts, follow it and your car will be a pleasure to drive. Plenty of time to bone up on the nitty gritty things after your out joy riding0
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37T, I've gotten great help from this forum. I don't need to be an expert on the carbs but I know it helps me to understand things. I'm 58 years old and if I don't keep learning things I'm afraid the old grey matter will start to atrophy. Besides, there is a ton of information on this forum that may not be shared unless someone asks the correct question. So while my question may seem overly complicated there is the chance someone may share their knowledge that may not have been shared if the question wasn't asked. If I never know why all the different carb models exist it probably won't hurt me there is the chance I will get one bit of information that will help me farther down the line. Possibly much more than one bit, and knowing something will never hurt. One thing I am trying to make sure of is if the previous owner put different carbs on this car how am I to know? Tomorrow I'll pull the bad carb off and search it over for numbers other than casting marks. The previous owner seemed to take a hit and miss attitude in the repair of the car and I want to make sure that I don't have a 2113 carb on one half and a 968 on the other. If I do can I just jet them the same and get away with it or do I need to match bodies?
One more question, how come my rep power never changes?
Harry0 -
Here is the application of Hudson Carter WA-1 carburetors 1950 to 1954 for Left Hand Drive vehicles.
Model Engine/Cars
749S 232 all 1950 - 1954
968S 308 Twin H 1952-1953
990S 262 Twin H 1952 -1953
2115S 262/308 Single Carb 1954
2114S 262 Single Carb 1954
2113S 308 Twin H 1952-1954
2009SA 202 Single Carb 1953-1954 Jet
2113SA 202 Twin H 1953-1954 Jet0 -
Mars--Are you sure that the number you show for Jet is correct? I have the original Carter spec sheets, mine call for 2013S, 2ea. Specs show 2113S used on 1952-54 Hornet, 2ea.
Also, my info shows the 2115S as a WGD, two-barrel carb.
Carter's sheet shows the 990S and 2114S both on same page--958S and 2113S same, 2009S,2009SA together.
Don't know if any of this helps--I have studied this stuff quite a bit, only REAL differences are base bolt patterns---Jets and 262 Twin-H are 1 1/4", others 1 1/2". For 968 and 2113, VERY minor differences in Low speed jet size (.003"),and metering rods (.001"). Looks like a very small difference in the taper on the metering rods, too. 749S varies slightly from these two.
From this information, I seriously doubt that one could feel any difference between carbs. Ther might be a VERY SMALL improvement in mileage, but I believe not enough to make any REAL difference.
Why the differences?? NO CLUE!!---- FWIW0 -
Excellent reply Mars. From your data there I can see that there should only be two carbs that were used on the twin H 308. As long as the previous owner got carbs from a 308 Twin H I should either have 968S or 2113S carbs on it. I believe I read where the base of the carbs on the smaller engines were also smaller by about 1/4 " between the studs so the only way to actually use the other carbs would be to modify the base or change the manifold. My worse case scenario is that the previous owner had a 2113S on one bank and the 968S on the other. As I reported before he had one carb completely disconnected and was trying to run the car on only the front carb. He must have thought the manifold fed all the cylinders.
Mars55, that took a lot of research and time to type and it is greatly appreciated.
Harry0 -
Bigboy308, also an excellent post. It is amazing the information available from the members of this forum. After reading your post I can see I don't need to be too worried if I do have a 968 and 2113 carb mixed. I don't know if that is the case, I just worry when I see all the other bad things the previous owner did.
Harry0 -
Just to add to the confusion, be aware that there was also a "Universal" WA1 sold, which had an adjustable jet under the cover, slotted holes in the flange, extended throttle shaft so you could fit the levers either side, manual choke, and removable plug for vacuum advance or not. The adjustable jet is in the top plate of the float bowl, just a tmy screw with a comression spring under the head (similar to the idling screw).
Geoff.0 -
Geoff;
that is the information I was hoping to dig up. When I was rebuilding the 968S I found a third check ball on the ground where I was working and no reference to it in the kit information. I got on this forum and someone knew about the third check ball being in the idle circuit on this carb only. I would have never known reading any of the manuals I had. Now if someone is rebuilding a WA-1 and they find that extra screw and spring they will know what they have and it's purpose. You may have just made the difference in some guys sanity, admitting that we are already all just a little crazy to be working on 50+ year old cars. Thanks for the additional information.
Harry0 -
Mars--Are you sure that the number you show for Jet is correct? I have the original Carter spec sheets, mine call for 2013S, 2ea. Specs show 2113S used on 1952-54 Hornet, 2ea.
Also, my info shows the 2115S as a WGD, two-barrel carb.
The Jet uses 2013SA's per Hudson Master Parts Catalog 1948-1954 Models. I do not know that the different is between a "S" and "SA" carb.
You quite right, the 2115S is a WGD, two-barrel carb.
Looking at the data I believe the 2013S is a replacement for the 968S. That is if you went to buy a new carburetor for a 1952 Twin H in say 1957 you would get a 2013S not a 968S. I think the major difference between the 968S and the 2013S is the problem with the idle that required a third ball bearing in the 968S was fixed in the 2013S.0 -
I wonder what type of changes they would make. It would have to change the way the air and fuel mixed at an idle. While it seems that would take some major redesigning it appears the changes were make without changing the outward appearance of the carburetor. You would think they would just update the number to 969S but instead the numbers change drastically. I wonder if each increment represents a failed try?
Harry0 -
Harry Hill wrote:I wonder what type of changes they would make. It would have to change the way the air and fuel mixed at an idle. While it seems that would take some major redesigning it appears the changes were make without changing the outward appearance of the carburetor. You would think they would just update the number to 969S but instead the numbers change drastically. I wonder if each increment represents a failed try?
Harry
It may not take much of change to change the air flow though the carburetor. As far the model number goes, it appears that Carter changed the way carburetors were numbered. Starting around 1953 Carter started numbering carburetors in the 2000's. This applied to all Carter carburetors not just WA-1s.0 -
Hello everyone, here's a report on how the Hash is doing. I picked up a good rebuildable carb from Bill A and BigBoy308 sent me a carb body to work with. I boiled out the carb I got from Bill and pulled my faulty carb off. Since I had forgotten to grab a carb kit at Bill's I pulled the good stuff off my carb and put it all in the new carb. I put the new carb on the Hash and wow, what a difference. Both carbs are pulling hard now and the 308 is purring like a kitten. I still get a squirt of gas out of the vent hole though and this is a completely different carb and jet. It only happens if I hit the throttle hard but it still shouldn't happen at all.Oh well, now that it's drivable I'm going to take it by Bill's and let him tune it and work out the bugs for me. I feel good with the progress I've made with the help of this forum but I'll leave it to the expert to do the fine tuning. Thanks again to everyone on this site for helping me along the way. I'm going to magnaflux the old carb to see if there is a crack in it that I was missing. It sure is nice though to feel the way this engine is suppose to be running.
Harry0
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