engine builders: do any of you agree with

Unknown
edited November -1 in HUDSON
this note I received from an engine builder in November 2004



"""""""I had no intention of even installing valve covers on that engine, that's your job. I cleaned them in my parts washer, rinsed them in hot water, and stuck them on there to keep dirt out of the engine while you transported it.



You shouldn't have even sent them here. I don't have time, within the context of the work I do, to detail covers and brackets which have absolutely zero bearing on the performance or longevity of the engine.



In 20 years of building and racing Indy cars, some of which set records that still stand, I have never found any benefit (in engineering terms) from sterilization of a valve cover. That is strictly a cosmetic exercise.""""""""""""



I did not "send" them; I delivered them! Didn't complain then.



He painted them before installing too, but did not mention that! The securing bolts were tight as if it was ready to crank (not loose/snug for transport). I wasn't told they were installed for "TRANSPORT ONLY" at time of pickup.



I thought I'd check out his work and found the rear cover with cavity, was just loaded with crud - a gentle tap and flakes of oil/crud buildup came falling from the inner walls. SOLUTION: I had to take it to NAPA machine shop and have it vatted; then I had to repaint and reinstall. After paying $7K who wants to disassemble an engine's sheet metal and find mucho crud (go to work).



Who in their rational mind would want that kind of OLD crud in a "new" engine? Certainly can't help anything. Point is they were not vatted, nor cleaned properly.



Be sure to get EVERY DETAIL in writing BEFORE you do business with anyone who supposedly has a good/bad reputation.


In another e-mail he wrote:



""""""As for the sludge trap in the valve cover, IMO the only real way to clean a sludge trap is to cut it open, clean it mechanically, and

Heli-Arc it back together. It's the way we had to clean engine oil tanks in dry sump applications when there was not 100% access

to the trap. Since you have delved into the air flow direction of the crankcase ventilation system, you have found out that that trap or

chamber is on the outlet side of the ventilation system, therefore it's impossible for any trapped contaminents to re-enter the engine

from that chamber. I do not blast nor glass bead those valve covers under any conditions, lest glass beads remain trapped in the

weld seams, and somehow migrate in to the oil system. Hot tanking should suffice to make it cleaner in the trap, following your

diligent efforts to clean it mechanically, but I will admit I don't concern myself with exit sludge traps beyond washing them out in

mineral spirits and following with water, and blowing them out with compressed air. My very own engines have that valve cover in the

identical condition that yours was in when you picked the engine up, and it presents no problem. All airflow is outboard from the

engine at that point, and no oil sludge or particulate matter can re-enter the engine from that point. However, since it's a concern to

you, I'll do what it takes to make you happy, even if I can't justify it through engineering terms."""""



1. Examine this => "...therefore it's impossible for any trapped contaminents to re-enter the engine from that chamber."



INCORRECT ; there are drain holes for residual oil droplets & dust (for those who still use the original style oil breather cap) to return into the engine-otherwise the cavity could fill up with oil if the return holes clog completely. Plus, as those return holes fill up with dust, oil and sludge it restricts the return of oil into the engine, although it might seem to be a small amount, it still needs to freely return to the crankcase (CLEAN).



2. Examine this => "As for the SLUDGE TRAP in the valve cover..."



Think about what he wrote and his admitted remedy, "I cleaned them in my parts washer, rinsed them in hot water..." SOME SOLUTION; he means he ATTEMPTED TO CLEAN them but fell FAR short of the mark.



No reputable machine shop ever cleaned a Hudson 'sludge trap' valve cover that way! .... for a rebuilt engine? GET REAL!



IMHO
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Comments

  • Unknown
    edited November 2013
    2004 (?)...

    You've got this one, and another separate builder issue - that was done by someone who does Hudson engines, right?

    Sounds like you've had a history of issues/problems with those that built/build your engines...

    Indy builder? With the 'attitude' shown above, I don't think I would let this guy work on my lawn mower, no less a high-dollar vehicle.

    It's the same one. I just want to impress upon those Hudson owner's who hire someone to build their engine to be sure to select someone who won't (AND CAN'T LEGALLY) wiggle out of doing the right thing.

    Tie them down before the hire with ample legal paperwork to cover all that you expect in the end.

    A fancy website should not be relied upon solely in your selection of an engine builder, nor the price.

    i.e., get a good contract written by someone who knows engines. This guy even refused to tell me specifics about what went into my engine; this is part of what he wrote:

    """""There's no part numbers for most of the components, they're ordered by

    dimension. You can't rebuild a Hudson engine from NAPA. I'll be glad to

    provide you a typical parts list, but the dimensions I use to custom order

    parts is proprietary for obvious competitive reasons. I cannot and will not

    give away hundreds of hours of research and design time. As well as years

    developing sources that I can work with, and depend on. Suffice to say, the

    engine I built for you is state-of-the -art for a 50 yr old competition

    engine, and uses the finest components available. Like ARP rod bolts, forged

    pistons, stainless valves, hi-po springs, alum-bronze guides, etc. I would

    simply be putting someone else in the enviable position of being capable of

    duplicating my product. I've already been asked for my source for oil

    filter adapters, and my source for balancing Hudson cranks. This list has

    now been expanded to include all parts and part numbers. Next will be

    dimensions. I've been in the racing engine field for a long time, and have

    seen this ploy before. Try calling Jack Rousch and asking him for a parts

    list on his Nextel Cup engines. He will also politely state that the

    specific information you request is proprietary. But to ease your mind,

    I'll share some information with you so you can enjoy your Holiday. In the

    street performance engines I rebuild, the valves are stainless Manley, the

    springs and retainers are Crane or Isky, brgs are Clevite, FM, or King, rod

    bolts are SPS or ARP, pistons are typically Ross, Sealed Power, or Wiseco,

    I use several competing piston manufacturers depending on forging size, bore size, desired compression ratio, and ring package. And everything excluding sheetmetal is as clean as the current industrial practice calls for,

    actually far in advance in some cases. I don't charge to clean

    sheetmetal engine components unless specifically stated in my workorders..."

    spooky; what's to hide?
  • Clutchguy
    Clutchguy Senior Contributor
    edited November 2013
    2004 (?)...

    You've got this one, and another separate builder issue - that was done by someone who does Hudson engines, right?

    Sounds like you've had a history of issues/problems with those that built/build your engines...

    Indy builder? With the 'attitude' shown above, I don't think I would let this guy work on my lawn mower, no less a high-dollar vehicle.

    I used to live in Indy and now live in Shelbyville,and I don't think I have ever done any work for 54HSWH.I build alot of Hudson engines!! I do take pride in my work and have been doing it for several years now.Parts are much better than they have been in the recent years,which just makes the job that much better,
  • It wasn't ClutchGuy, and it wasn't Me.



    Thank GOD!



    Mark
  • `Hudsonator wrote:
    It wasn't ClutchGuy, and it wasn't Me.



    Thank GOD!



    Mark



    Hey Mark, if we keep eliminating the possibilities HE will emerge as the obvious one left who should receive all of the credit.



    hehe
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    FYI

    I have never heard of anyone needing a legal contract to have an engine machined and/or assembled for a stock or modified motor if dealing with a competent Builder concerned about his reputation. Usually quality is never an issue at a machine shop, just timelyness...



    Competent Engine builders (ESPECIALLY builders associated with Racing motors) are paranoid (and rightfully so) about 'any' dirt, grime, and even airborn dust.



    It may have been a missed cummunication to clean the covers 'better' due to extra build-up (which can still be present after vating), however if one paid for a turn key motor, one would expect all the all pans & covers to be factory clean regardless of needing extra time for cleaning.



    Apparently the company supervision is existing on'past reputation' (and ego) but perhaps the personnel that actually do the work may have changed impacting current quality & workmanship
  • Browniepetersen
    Browniepetersen Senior Contributor
    I do not live near indy, but I have to say that I have never built an engine with the attitude shown above. I like the "so clean you could eat off the floor" approach. At that price I would have expected dinner on the manifold.... if I ever move out that way, I'll know (or find out) who not to take my engines too.
  • Ol racer wrote:
    FYI



    It may have been a missed communication to clean the covers 'better' due to extra build-up (which can still be present after vating), however if one paid for a turn key motor, one would expect all the all pans & covers to be factory clean regardless of needing extra time for cleaning.





    After NAPA cleaned them in their vat they were clean, VERY clean, FACTORY clean!!!



    Let's not make excuses for him; he even did not replace the worn/grooved metal sleeve on the crankshaft that the timing cover's rubber lip seal rides on, and that $15.oo item is the direct cause of the front seal leaking oil!!



    I, nor anyone else expecting a professional rebuild, should be STUCK with that type of engine building. BTW, it's leaking oil out of both ends!!



    I just want to warn you about lurking problems to avoid if at all possible.
  • 54 HSWH wrote:
    Let's not make excuses for him.....



    I just want to warn you about lurking problems to avoid if at all possible.



    Then please do not keep the rest of us in darkness.



    Tell us who we should be wary of (we already have the why) and be done with it.



    Otherwise, move this to the new Discussions sub forum.
  • John;

    I've seen paranoid engine builders who act like your builder. I've also seen guys who farm out most of their work and don't know what is going out of their shop. They assume their cheap laborers will do what's right but it often isn't the case. It seems like the busier these guys get the more the quality slips and the more defensive they get about their work. I sure don't know the answer to what happened to you, there probably isn't an answer after this much time. I hope you find the answer to what went wrong and can get your money back out of that engine.



    Harry
  • As far as years of research and development, (I think I know who you're refering) he bought a timing chain set from me and copied it and now charges almost twice as much as I do.
  • Hi 54 hswh,

    I've built many engines over the past thirty some years. DIRT IS THE NUMBER ONE ENEMY OF A NEWBUILD!!! Who in their right mind would put dirty anything on a rebuilt motor? They could have simply been left off and covered with some lint free rags. Must not be very proud of his work. Good luck! Jim
  • That's amazing! When I was a kid, rebuilding go-kart and mower engines just to see how things worked, I worked on the cleanest surface I had, and cleaned and recleaned parts befpre they went back together. Blew one or two up again, but it wasn't because of dirt!:eek:
  • I.m not saying dirt blew his motor, just that it wrecks havoc on something that you just forked over thousands of your hard earned money for. This builder said a bunch of crud in the valves cover didn't matter. Well, I sure wouldn't like it. Happy new year Jim
  • 7XPacemaker
    7XPacemaker Senior Contributor
    "cleanliness is next to godliness" is a line that I was always taught. When I rebuild ANY engine, I take the time to thoroughly clean and soak all internal/external parts that are to be used again and ensure that they are spotless. I have found metallic shavings in places that there shouldn't be anything. I wouldn't want my name associated with an engine that wasn't done in this manner. Every cover/ panel that is associated with containment of an internal fluid should be installed correctly. It sounds rather UNCOMMON of a rebuilder to make statements like his.
  • 7XPacemaker; Now ,your one guy I'd have rebuild any of my motors. That's a PERFECT way of putting it in my book. JIm
  • 7XPacemaker wrote:
    "cleanliness is next to godliness" is a line that I was always taught. When I rebuild ANY engine, I take the time to thoroughly clean and soak all internal/external parts that are to be used again and ensure that they are spotless. I have found metallic shavings in places that there shouldn't be anything. I wouldn't want my name associated with an engine that wasn't done in this manner. Every cover/ panel that is associated with containment of an internal fluid should be installed correctly. It sounds rather UNCOMMON of a rebuilder to make statements like his.



    I agree with you wholeheartedly, it's very UNCOMMON.



    He even told me I could have anything I wanted to know about the parts that went into the engine, BEFORE he got the money. After a transfer of money you read his written responses.



    i.e., have the builder give you everything in writing BEFORE you turn your engine over to him and pay 50% up-front money. You'll be glad you did.
  • maasfh wrote:
    As far as years of research and development, (I think I know who you're referring) he bought a timing chain set from me and copied it and now charges almost twice as much as I do.



    Randy, I am not surprised at all, on his part.



    It's cut throat in the world; an engine builder in AZ told me "the world is full of crooks".



    I'm surprised that you would sell him anything. A #1 competitor of yours, for sure.



    I, too, learned a terrible lesson.



    This is why I don't want any more Hudson owner's to get "taken to the cleaners";



    I take that back, I want them to hire someone who will clean parts correctly, and not reuse old/worn parts that cause oil leaks on initial crankup.
  • 54 HSWH wrote:
    I, too, learned a terrible lesson.



    This is why I don't want any more Hudson owner's to get "taken to the cleaners."



    Then please tell us plainly and clearly who it is we should avoid based on your bad experience.
  • Pacemaker500 wrote:
    Then please tell us plainly and clearly who it is we should avoid based on your bad experience.



    I think he did!
  • hudsondad wrote:
    I think he did!



    I see no such post that states:


    I received poor service from:

    Company

    Address

    City, State Zip



    We have been given such a wonderful list of those vendors that are giving GREAT service in parts, manufacturing, repairing and customer service to the Hudson community. I even have it taped in my Hudson serive manual. All websites and booked marked and other contact info saved.



    Is it too much to ask for the same in a list of those that are NOT?



    I do appreciate the efforts someone put in to send me a PM with certain messages quoted and highlighted giving clues to the identity.



    If 54 HSWH is trying to keep the moderators calm (as suggested to me in a PM) then where else do y'all suggest we as Hudson owners post such information regarding poor service?
  • I feel bad for 54HSWH that this engine rebuild experience went sour. I would think that after seeing the person's website that built the engine, that this shoddy work would be UNCOMMON for the history they put forth, and all of the efforts and work, ENGINEERING these things to work right. Oh well, I guess in the end, like someone said, a flashy website doesn't always mean the best work.
  • Pacemaker500 wrote:
    I see no such post that states:







    We have been given such a wonderful list of those vendors that are giving GREAT service in parts, manufacturing, repairing and customer service to the Hudson community. I even have it taped in my Hudson serive manual. All websites and booked marked and other contact info saved.



    Is it too much to ask for the same in a list of those that are NOT?



    I do appreciate the efforts someone put in to send me a PM with certain messages quoted and highlighted giving clues to the identity.



    If 54 HSWH is trying to keep the moderators calm (as suggested to me in a PM) then where else do y'all suggest we as Hudson owners post such information regarding poor service?



    Okay, dude, you don't get it. I'll send you a PM.
  • Hey Ed Bloom, please go take a rest, drink a Marguerita and RELAX;



    you e-mailed and told me that you were not imminently-about to build an engine and even stated some name, apparently via e-mails from others.



    So why do you continue to beat a dead horse-you apparently assume the answer to your questions?!



    Let me suggest that you call HIM, verify that he is the right one (see if he remembers building my engine), and ask him why he did not put a new crankshaft sleeve on the crank for the new rubber-lipped seal to ride on. He gave me several reasons-one was that ORIGINALLY the seals were leather riding on the metal sleeve, I believe he said. But then you saw where he wrote that he gave me state-of-the-art technology (ha-new seal riding on a grooved & worn sleeve so it leaked oil right away, each time it was run). It's simple; pick up the phone and call. Then you can post your findings here. Let's see how brave you are.



    Also ask him why he did not come fix both front and rear seals from leaking. I have the engine sitting on the floor in my garage now. Maybe both of you can come here; we will disassemble it together and legally document the problems and while at it look for the "state-of-the-art". MERCY
  • 54 HSWH wrote:
    Hey Ed Bloom, please go take a rest, drink a Marguerita and RELAX;



    you e-mailed and told me that you were not imminently-about to build an engine and even stated the name, apparently via e-mails from others.



    So why do you continue to beat a dead horse-you know the answer to your questions?!



    Let me suggest that you call HIM and see if he remembers building my engine, and ask him why he did not put a new crankshaft sleeve on the crank for the new rubber-lipped seal to ride on. He gave me tons of reasons-one was that ORIGINALLY the seals were leather riding on the metal sleeve, I believe he said. But then you saw where he wrote that he gave me state-of-the-art technology (ha-new seal riding on a grooved & worn sleeve so it leaked oil right away each time it was run). It's simple; pick up the phone and call him. Then you can post your findings here. Let's see how brave you are.



    Also ask him why he did not come fix both front and rear seals from leaking. I have the engine sitting on the floor in my garage now. Maybe both of you can come here; we will disassemble it together and find the problems and while at it look for the "state-of-the-art". MERCY



    preposterous!



    who would have thought an INDY record holder would have so much double speak?



    Thanks for the heads up. I think we need to have a reminder about once a month.
  • 54 HSWH wrote:
    You e-mailed and told me that you were not imminently-about to build an engine and even stated the name, apparently via e-mails from others.



    So why do you continue to beat a dead horse-you know the answer to your questions?!



    You are correct. I did not know who the firm in question was until just before that e-mail. Another Forum Member sent me a PM with the full name.



    And also correct in that I am not looking to have an engine rebuilt soon.



    But I take you back a few posts to my question asking if the membership here can and did make a list of those firms providing good service to the Hudson community, why can not we also make a list of those businesses that are not providing good service.



    I just do not understand why one could not openly state the name of the firm in question.



    hudsonkid wrote:
    who would have thought an INDY record holder would have so much double speak?



    Who is the record holder and what records?
  • Jim Kilday
    Jim Kilday Expert Adviser
    For what it's worth. The laws regarding libel, slander and defamation in this country have not been repealed so far as I know.



    Making statements in public that can be construed as actionable can be a very dicey proposition. In most cases, the truth is the best defense you can possibly have, however, that won't stop someone who feels they've been harmed or damaged from filing a lawsuit against you for damages.



    Proving damages is very difficult, but you always run the risk of someone with deep pockets getting very pissed off and coming after you with an aggressive attorney. If this hasn't happened to you, I'm quite sure you will not enjoy your initiation experience.



    Actually, it can be very unnerving and quite expensive. If you've ever been sued by someone who has an attorney with cage bars on their office instead of a door and a Plaintiff who has no reservations whatsoever about lying while under oath you will understand what I am talking about.



    I'm not an attorney, although I did study law as a young man and spent a lifetme working with attorneys in business so I know enough to be careful.



    I suppose the most constructive comment I can make is that one should be very thoughtful when making statements and assertions about another person or business in the public arena.



    I hope there is at least one attorney amongst the readership who will feel compelled to comment.



    Jim Kilday
  • Jim; unfortunately though I hate your advise I know for most people it is true. Lawyers are the ruin of this country and they run this country. They are what keep honest men in control. They make it so no matter how badly you are cheated there is no real retribution without paying another lawyer to get it. I think most of us know who did this shoddy work and if they don't they can write John personally and he may tell them.



    Harry



    Harry
  • There's more suggestions: be sure that you are there BEFORE/DURING the oil pan installation.



    In this case, we pulled the oil pan off at the job site, before reinstallation, to ALSO check other sheet metal (oil pickup tube and screen).



    Guess what; that too was NOT vatted. Can you imagine that? I had a witness.



    FURTHERMORE, the engine was turned bottom-end up, and looking down into the pistons/rods area there was much miscellaneous foreign debris that had fallen down into that area while the engine was being built; didn't find any tools however.



    He must have eaten above that area while rebuilding it at some point too. Looked like some rats had partied on a 2" x 2" above that area for a couple days. TRUE STORY, and very hard to rationalize, but TRUUUUUUE! I had my assistant to vaccuum it all out; why did the builder not do it? He thought I would not know; that is how much he valued me as a customer from out of state.



    So, possibly hire someone locally and go by often, and get a finely detailed contract. The price will go up but at least you were the BOSS/DIRECTOR, plus you have legal recourse when the occasion arises. Get the guarantee in writing too. e.g., if the rear seal is leaking he agrees to remove the engine at your location and repair it or he pays to have it removed & reinstalled and transported to his shop. You get the idea; hire a lawyer; it'll be worth it.
  • bent metal
    bent metal Senior Contributor
    hudsonkid wrote:
    I feel bad for 54HSWH that this engine rebuild experience went sour. I would think that after seeing the person's website that built the engine, that this shoddy work would be UNCOMMON for the history they put forth, and all of the efforts and work, ENGINEERING these things to work right. Oh well, I guess in the end, like someone said, a flashy website doesn't always mean the best work.



    Oooohhhh! Okay, haha I like your way of thinking Hudson Kid. By the way, is that your car in your avatar? If so, good luck sir. That's a brave undertaking.:)
  • yawn. while i envy those who can afford one of their rebuilds (or one by anyone other than himself) i have to say i would rather know for certain that everything is right to go into my engine. that and there isnt anyone i can think of off the top of my head rebuilding hudson engines here on the "arse end of the world" as one of our PM's called it.
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