engine question
Comments
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Will the 262 heads fit all the 308's? I thought I saw something that said the later models had a thicker web in the head because the early heads were cracking. I thought I also read that the block had changed on the later engines, was wider or something like that. What head did the 7X engine use?
Harry0 -
WRONG sorry! The '48-'50 262's and 232's are a narrower block and head than '51 onwards. You can fit a '50 232 head to a '48-'50 262 to get an increase in compression. There is no difference in the head gaskets for these years. The 232 first came out in '50. Then in '51, when the first 308 came out, all the blocks and heads were wider, and the heads interchangeable. My understanding is that the '55-'56 308's had 1/2" threads in the head block, and slightly bigger holes in the heads as well, but there are others more knowledgeable than me who can confirm this. You cannot use a 232/262 gasket on a 308.
Geoff.0 -
Thank you Geoff. When my motor let go and I went to pull it down, it had a 262 gasket as someone had installed a 262 head. The gasket was hammered by the pistons, and I am surprised it ran as long as it did. The previous owner swore you could use the 262 gasket and that was not my problem. I won't go any farther on the subject.0
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so if I use a 232 head from a 54 on a 262 engine from a 53 it will work. How much of an increase in comp and power could it gain me? I know you can't be exact but I'm just wondering if it would be worth doing.0
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FYI
Compression makes HP but along with that increase comes head gasket sealing problems. You need to ensure (as mentioned by others above), that the 232 head is the same width as your 308 block. Best guess a 232 would up the Comp ratio a quarter to half Pt over a 262. I never used a 232 head, only 262 head or aluminum, but ALWAYS with a new 308 Gasket!!
You could mill your 262 head to accomplish the same Increase. I suggest Dale Cooper 519 821 6200 (www.hudsonmotorcarco.comfor all your Rebuild Parts and go a little extra for the BEST Brand of head gasket, Its the best sealing gasket available today0 -
Jimalberta wrote:so if I use a 232 head from a 54 on a 262 engine from a 53 it will work. How much of an increase in comp and power could it gain me? I know you can't be exact but I'm just wondering if it would be worth doing.
In your specific case, a 232 head on a 262 engine would give you an increase in compression ratio of roughly 22%, to 8.5:1, which would necessitate the use of high octane fuel. Just how much this would increase performance or economy is a matter of conjecture. The optional alloy head for the 262 was 7.5:1. The alloy dissipated heat much faster, hence the tendency to "ping" was reduced.
Geoff.0 -
Geoff; what compression did the 7X engine have? Which head did they use on it?
Harry0 -
Harry Hill wrote:Geoff; what compression did the 7X engine have? Which head did they use on it?
Harry
I'm sorry I don't have that information, and will have to leave it to the experts on that one. I'm sure somebody has the figures. According to the blurb in Butler's "History of Hudson" the h.p. of this engine was around 220, which is a whopping 35% increase over the standard offering.
Geoff.0 -
FYI
I suggest not raising the compression up too much with todays low 87 Octane fuel (and high Prices) or you would need to use Premium all the time to avoid 'Pinging' and subsequent piston/valve damage, or require retarding the Timing defeating the purpose. Afterall, when Hornets were new the Octane were 101+ ...0 -
What fuel octane rating do most of our members run? Was the Hudson a car that used low octane fuel or high octane fuel?
Harry0 -
The true 7X built for racing by Hudson had a 232 head on it. The comp ratio was between 8.7 and 9.2-to-1 depending on how it was shaved. Oversized valves were installed and the ports hand polished. Those engines ran on high octane and due to the high lift in the cam had a growly lopey sound at idle. These engines were rough torque monsters designed to scream on the track not the type of engine for everyday cruising.
Most engines out there claiming to be 7X have milder cams and 262 heads on them. The true 7X blocks were reinforced at the Hudson factory the relief was deep and hand finished. These were single purpose engines for race. I doubt many survived.
What you do see out there is the severe duty engine with the less severe relief a 262 head and the oversized valves. Still a good engine but not a 7X racing engine. They may be called 7X but most likely they are built to severe duty specs.0 -
"Most engines out there claiming to be 7X have milder cams and 262 heads on them. The true 7X blocks were reinforced at the Hudson factory the relief was deep and hand finished. These were single purpose engines for race. I doubt many survived.
What you do see out there is the severe duty engine with the less severe relief a 262 head and the oversized valves. Still a good engine but not a 7X racing engine. They may be called 7X but most likely they are built to severe duty specs."
I don't understand this statement- are you saying that there were differently built 7X engines from the factory? If this is what you are saying, I think that you might be incorrect.0 -
[/QUOTE]I don't understand this statement- are you saying that there were differently built 7X engines from the factory? If this is what you are saying, I think that you might be incorrect.[/QUOTE]
I'm certainly no expert but everything I've read so far said the 7X engine was specifically built as the severe duty engine. I think anything else was not the 7X but a factory custom built for a special order race car. I don't think the custom engines were called 7X engines.
Harry0 -
No I am not incorrect. For the racing program support Hudson produced a series of engines they had the cylinder block reinforced the block relief was deeper and hand finished. The program code for these engines was 7X. During the process of releasing the severe duty/high altitude engine to the public the 7X designation got co-opted. But it started as the racing engine program. Well, I could be wrong I got my info from Siegfried and Sloane McCauley articles.0
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51hornetA wrote:No I am not incorrect. For the racing program support Hudson produced a series of engines they had the cylinder block reinforced the block relief was deeper and hand finished. The program code for these engines was 7X. During the process of releasing the severe duty/high altitude engine to the public the 7X designation got co-opted. But it started as the racing engine program. Well, I could be wrong I got my info from Siegfried and Sloane McCauley articles.
True 7X engines had no engine serial numbers on the block. Did the high altitude models? My understanding is that only 7X engines had no serial number cast into them.0 -
High Altitude had no serial number stamped into them if they were not installed. During the dealer install the serial number was stamped on the block with a state preface eg. CAxxxxx I think the confusion is based on what is a factory race engine and what is a severe duty engine designated 7X. From what I understand you can easily tell the difference as the 7X race engine has packing in the block around the cylinders is bored out 60 thou over and the relief is deeper than the severe duty engine and the 54 block. I have been trying for years to get a picture of the deck of one of these blocks to see the relief. So far have not run into anyone with an actual 7X racing block. 7X severe usage yes.
I know of two guys who have 7X severe usage engines in their cars with no serial number. They got the engines still in the crate the serial number was not stamped on as the engine was not installed. They were crated and untouched from the factory. These engines were 7X severe they were not race engines with the reinforced blocks. You could say that was splitting hairs but my understanding (3rd hand) is that the true race engines are gone. Some guys might have them and the sure way to confirm that is to check the things I list above.0 -
I just spoke with Gus Souza on this issue. He knew Bernie Sigfried, who designed and developed the 7X engine. There was no special engine for the dirt track. High altitude 7X's had different jetting in the carb only. There was no extra reinforcement or packing. I was unsure of what you were saying and called him for verification. I know of an individual who removed a 7X engine from a car and there was no serial number on the block to date. My 7X engine was installed in another car as well and has no serial number stamped in the block...0
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This is wrong. The engines for the track were finished by hand and the severe usage engines were not the inside of the block has reinforcing I talked to a fellow about that. Also I have every factory document on the 7X engine. Siegfrieds letters on engines plus Sloanes description of the 7X build and his opinions on true 7X race engines versus 7X severe usage. Check out Sloanes writeup on 7X on Ken Cates site.0
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I guess that we'll agree to disagree. I am not in any position to call Gus Souza wrong- he has raced, driven and built more Hudson engines than anyone else that I know. Not to mention him knowing Bernie personally.0
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As to serial numbers on 7X blocks I refer to the factory bulletin in stamping the serial number and the nice description on page 73 Langworths book on Hudsons. I quote " The 7-X blocks had to be hand stamped by the dealer. For instance , the few here in California all have 'CAL' followed by the some numbers so they could be properly registered. This was done by the dealers when they sold the engines."
So any 7X engine found in a car that is dealer installed will have a serial number on the block stamped by the dealer. That was the factory sanctioned procedure when you ordered a Hornet after January 8th 1953 when the 7X engine was available as a dealer installed option you got the car and a crate was shipped to the dealer. They removed the engine put in the 7X engine and sent the short block assembly back to the factory. I have the dealer form from the factory for doing this.
It is said and described nicely in Langworths book that Teague brought his Hornet to the factory and they pulled the head off the block and it had the relief cut in plus the cylinders were circled with punch marks to keep the head gasket from blowing. This is mid 51 the factory then made cars and resources available to the Teague team. The hand constructed the race engines that required them to produce a factory option for this engine to fit inside Nascar rules of being stock. These true race engines spawned the 7X severe duty packages that hit the streets between Jan 2 and August 3 1953.
What is really funny is the skeleton 7X engine assembly was available from January 8th 1953 onward but was not officially announced by Hudson until August 3 1953.0 -
Sean,
Since I'll be seeing Gus on Sunday at a tech session, is there anything you'd like me to ask him?
Dave0 -
I am using a 232 head which had been cut .050" on my '49 262 bored .020" oversize. It runs great on regular. Stock ignition timing with all advance mechanisms working properly. Rod0
This discussion has been closed.
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