Oil Supplement - EOS

Ol racer
Ol racer Senior Contributor
edited November -1 in HUDSON
FYI

GM's EOS (Zinc Additive Pkg) has a new part Number #88862589 begining this month replacing old #1052367. There were some tenmporary Dealer out of Stocks due to a change in Supplier (not the ingredients) to GM...



As we all know Oils became far superior over time from the original crude products reaching a peak with Synthetics until Government Regulations began forcing removal of critical anti-wear additives because of potential Cat converter damage & enviromental concerns. Apparently Legislators forgot about the thousands of older vehicles needing some wear additives...



Im told by adding a bottle of EOS at oil changes that one can use any Brand oil but do what you please...

Comments

  • I've heard the zinc content has been reduced in this product too. How about using a cam break in oil like those offered by Lucas and Crane?
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    Hello,

    The cam Lube that I have used Is pretty heavy to consider adding at changes. I have read where Castrol is coming out with Classic Car oils (Pre Cat converter cars) .
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    If it is an 'Oil' to be added after Cam installation and recommended by the cam Manufacturer would be okay... Suggest asking their Tech Line for regular use
  • If you get a chance, check out #159 Crane cam shaft break-in oil. Also, Lucas makes a break-in oil additive with TB zinc plus or some such additive. A last resort for people wanting high ZDDP levels may be racing oils, such as those that don't have to meet the new standards for street vehicles.
  • ---All good info above . Zinc content seems to be the only additive we should be concernd with . I read a real good article on supplements and they warn against upsetting chemical balances/reactions with additives which makes a lot of sense to me, and to not use the high viscosity oils used in all out raceing in street engines, Article also said do not go to the real low indexes also when useing multi viscosity oils. Don't hold their cling unless your in EXTREMELY LOW temps. They recommend 10-30 for cold climes in winter, and straight 30 for the summer and warm states That does'nt mean no raceing oils, just keep the viscosity proper for the temps you're operating in. To me that translates to any good detergant oil of proper wght with zinc and nothing more than zinc added. Also stated; zinc only comes into play when the oil film has sheared and guards against metal to metal contact. If we babied the throttle we might not even need it but I'm not one to be chancy with these old splasher engines. BUD
  • super651
    super651 Senior Contributor
    I have used Caterpillar Diesel Engine oil in my Hudsons for many years.

    It comes in a 1-gal jug and part # 3E9714 and is a 15W-40 wt oil.

    The Diesel oil has a0.09 or 900 ppm ZINC thats the only differance in gas oil.

    Hope this helps Rudy
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    I think OHV motors with all the (additional & heavier) valve train are more prone for potential cam wear than flatheads. Hudson tappets spin easily while cranking and when at speed rotate helping prevent wear.... But just in case....
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    Haven't we heard all this before?
  • Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
    Haven't we heard all this before?



    Indeed we have. Is that a problem? :confused:
  • tigermoth
    tigermoth Expert Adviser
    new article in "auto restorer". talks about problem of compatibility of an oil formulated for diesel engines/diesel operating temps/diesel combustion by-products used in gasoline engines with gasoline engine operating temps/gasoline combustion by-products. just because mixing in something sounds like a good idea, it may not be. to illustrate where bad info may come from the article references two SAE studies. one showing this might work, the other stating how it wouldn't. author of mechanic on duty column with 30+ years experience has not seen any problems using regular oil in the old engines and he sees more in a month than i will see in my life time. a cam manufacturer who has a problem will likely first point to something else before they accept responsibility. my two cents as well. regards, tp
  • 7XPacemaker
    7XPacemaker Senior Contributor
    A piece of interesting information from a chemist friend......



    ZDDP (also referred to as ªzincº or ZDTP) is the acronym used for

    zinc dialkyldithiophospate. ZDDP is used in motor oils to inhibit

    oxidation of oils and to reduce engine wear. We are concerned here

    primarily with its antiwear properties. Surprisingly, the exact way

    in which ZDDP prevents wear is not known. One thought is that

    when part of a modern motor oil, ZDDP plates out on the engine's

    iron surfaces, including bearing surfaces and cam surfaces. If a

    surface gets very hot, as happens when there is a large amount of

    friction, the weak sulfur (or thio) bond is broken. This causes zinc

    or zinc phosphate to be plated out on the bearing surface so that the

    zinc or zinc phosphate becomes a sacrificial metal or salt. This

    means the plated-out zinc or zinc phosphate is worn away rather

    than the bearing surface. It's easy to see why it is desirable to have

    ZDDP in a motor oil.

    However, ZDDP does have some undesirable properties.

    Surprisingly, it increases friction, not a good thing for a motor oil.

    In addition, because it plates out on surfaces and the residual

    phosphorus leaves an ash, too much ZDDP can foul spark plugs. Thus, as with most additives found in modern motor oils, the use of ZDDP must

    be balanced by the amount of other additives. In the case of ZDDP,

    it is especially important to have neither too much nor too little

    detergent in the oil. Finally, too much ZDDP can attack the

    boundary grains of iron. (I have also read in several places but

    cannot confirm that excess ZDDP can produce sulfuric acid as it

    breaks down.)

    So what is the history of ZDDP in motor oils?

    ZDDP was first used in motor oils developed for aircraft engines

    around 1942. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range (or

    300 ppm phosphorus by weight) were able to pass a corrosion test

    introduced in 1942. Many of these engines were air cooled, run at

    high rpm's and at high loads, i.e., conditions fairly different from

    how our flathead engines were designed and operated. Around

    1947, ZDDP was commercialized for automotive use.

    In the mid-1950's, the phosphorus level from ZDDP was increased

    to about 0.08% to deal with the friction caused by the use of highlift

    camshafts, which increased the potential for scuffing and wear.

    At this time, new tests of valve-train scuffing and

    wear were developed by the automotive industry.

    Also about this time, the industry discovered that more ZDDP was

    not better. Although using more phosphorus reduced scuffing at

    break in, longer term wear increased at phosphorus levels above

    0.14%. In addition, at levels of about 0.20% phosphorus, the

    ZDDP attacks the grain boundaries of iron, which can result in

    camshaft spalling.

    Oil thickening emerged as a problem in the 1960's with the higher

    heat of high-load engines, e.g., those in muscle cars. Oils were

    oxidizing and thickening to the point that engines could no longerpump it. In response, more ZDDP was added to motor oils as an

    inexpensive antioxidant, raising levels of phosphorus to about 0.10%.

    However, it has been found that ZDDP causes problems with the

    longevity of the catalytic converters used for emission control in

    modern cars. It poisons the catalytic converters and the residual ash,

    caused by ZDDP combustion, clogs them. With cars lasting much

    longer, the US Environmental Protection Agency began restricting the

    amount of ZDDP in motor oils. The eventual goal is to have catalytic

    converters last for 150,000 miles by 2009. Ironically, the long lives of

    modern engines, caused in large part by modern motor oils themselves,

    meant that the oils had to be reformulated. This reformulation has

    occurred over several years. Since modern cars have roller lifters or

    tappets, lower levels of ZDDP are not a problem for them. Most of our

    flathead engines have been operated since 2001 using motor oils with

    lower levels of ZDDP.

    Using data supplied by the oil industry, we can list the approximate

    recent levels according to year.

    API Designation Year Percent Phosphorus

    SH 1996 0.120

    SJ & SL 2001&2004 0.100

    SM 2005 0.080

    The level of ZDDP in motor oil with the API designation of SM is

    about the same as was used in the latter part of the 1950's. Our

    flathead engines are not experiencing reduced levels of ZDDP. Instead

    they are experiencing higher levels than were present in motor oils

    when the engines were new.

    In addition, it is not true that older engines have not been considered in

    the reformulation. Because backward compatibility is important, the oil

    industry has developed other types of antiwear and antioxidant

    additives to compensate for the lower amount of ZDDP in motor oils.

    These additives are now being used in current motor oils. It appears

    that these additives are based upon boron and/or molybdenum.

    In addition, two tests (also known as sequences) of motor oil, while not

    using flathead engines, do use engines with valve trains that do not

    contain roller followers (i.e., the engines had followers with sliding

    friction, just like our flatheads). Sequence IVA uses a single overhead

    cam engine with slider finger followers to test for camshaft scuffing

    and wear. Sequence IIIG uses a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system to

    check cam and lifter wear.

    So What's the Problem?

    There have been many reports of catastrophic failure of valve trains in

    the last three years or so. Most of these appear to have occurred in

    newly rebuilt engines with overhead valve engines equipped with flat tappet lifters, i.e., not equipped with roller tappets. However, as you

    might expect, most of these engines had much stiffer valve springs than

    found in our flathead engines. Over about the same period that ZDDP was being reduced in

    motor oils, many U.S. suppliers of flat-tappet lifters reduced

    capacity or closed production. As a result, many engine

    rebuilders of high performance engines turned to lifters made by

    off-shore companies. Reportedly these valve train components

    too often used inferior metallurgy, poor finishes and improper

    radii. (They were, however, affordable and available.)

    Some other engines did not have catastrophic failure but instead

    suffered non-catastrophic failure. Their valve train components

    simply wore at an alarming rate. Reports for this type of failure

    occurred in older pushrod, air cooled Porsches and motorcycles,

    which is not really a surprise when you consider that ZDDP was

    originally developed for air-cooled engines. Air-cooled engines

    can have more stresses due to the fact that, compared to watercooled

    engines, their operating temperature is more variable and

    engine tolerances are often larger to account for more thermal

    expansion.

    The article I mentioned at the beginning of this article had a

    chilling story of a 1946 Cadillac with a flathead engine. The

    bronze gear failed very quickly when operated with a SM oil.

    However, attributing this to the lower ZDDP levels in the SM

    oil is incorrect for several reasons. First, the sample size was

    simply too small to draw conclusions, i.e., there were too few

    tests of too few bronze gears. Second, most commercial oils in

    1946 didn't have ZDDP. If reduced ZDDP is a problem,

    certainly all 1946 Cadillac engines would have failed quickly.

    Finally and most convincingly, ZDDP does not act as an

    antiwear additive for bronze metals. Remember it acts only on

    metals containing iron. Something else had to be responsible

    for the bronze gear failure. In my opinion, the bronze itself is

    suspect. The machine shop that made the gears did not follow

    the specs for the original bronze gear. Instead, they ªfound

    material that they felt would be satisfactory.º I suspect those

    materials were not satisfactory.

    What does this mean for our flathead engines?

    Unfortunately, there is more opinion than hard data on this

    subject (and that includes this article). This makes it especially

    important to check what facts we do have:

    Fact: The motor oils used by our flathead engines when they

    were new did not have ZDDP. Our engines lasted a long time

    while using oil with no or low ZDDP.

    Fact: While ZDDP is reduced in current motor oils, it is still

    about the same level that was present in the mid-1950's, when

    the heavier valve trains of overhead valve engines required it.

    And those levels of ZDDP solved that problem.

    Fact: Most of the catastrophic failures of valve trains occurred

    in newly rebuilt engines with flat tappets during a period when

    many cams of suspect quality were supplied by off-shore

    manufacturers.

    Fact: Despite several years of use of the newly formulated oils,

    there have been no wide-spread reports of failures of valve

    trains in our flatheads, in contrast to what you would

    expect if there were a severe problem with these oils.

    Fact: The oil industry strives to make oils backward compatible

    and there are two sequences with engines somewhat similar to

    our engines in terms of flat tappets. All of the current oils with

    the SM designation must pass this test.

    Continued on next post......
  • 7XPacemaker
    7XPacemaker Senior Contributor
    To me this all suggests that unlike the muscle cars of the 60's

    and 70's (or perhaps hotrodded flathead engines), our stock

    flathead engines are not likely to have problems with the current

    oils. However, some people have begun using diesel motor oil

    and racing motor oils. This is problematic for two reasons. The

    first is that these oils have very different additive packages that

    are not designed for our engines and the way we use them.

    Diesel oils tend to have very high levels of detergents, much

    higher than are appropriate for our cars. These levels of

    detergent can block or clean anti-wear films from metal parts.

    In contrast to this, racing oils tend to have less aggressive

    detergent packages. After all, the oil is changed after each race

    and, in many cases, engines are torn down after a major race and

    all parts are checked for wear. I don't know of anyone that

    operates their flathead this way.

    Others have turned to ZDDP additives, especially GM's EOS.

    This was a short-lived solution because GM stopped offering it

    in 2007. However, there still appears to be one additive that is

    available thru the internet, ZddPlus. Anyone thinking of using

    it should be aware that trying to improve on the additive

    package found in current motor oils is likely a futile project for

    an amateur. Recall that there are problems with too much

    ZDDP and that detergent levels must be appropriately adjusted

    for the amount of ZDDP. Although I'm a chemist, I wouldn't

    attempt to improve on the current oils through the addition of

    additives. Oil companies develop additive packages for their

    motor oils by running a multitude of tests at a significant cost.

    Instead, because our information is incomplete, I'm going to

    continue to monitor information about ZDDP and motor oil as it

    becomes available. At the same time, I will use the current

    formulation of motor oil in my flathead. Some may decide to

    pursue other solutions and I would not presume to tell someone

    what they should do with their engine. As they say, ªYou pay

    your money and you take your chances.º
  • Its been fun reading the posts. My opinion is just used a good brand name motor oil change often and forget the additives. My family has been in the automotive end since cars came about, it kind of reminds me of customers who swore by STP additives years ago. To each his own.
  • OK, who else suspects that the ZDDP scare was perpetrated by people trying to create a market for their ZDDP additive products?



    It stands to reason that if ZDDP were the premier anti-wear additive based on chemical knowledge of 60 years ago, the oils of today should have a better equilvalent.



    For what it's worth, I've heard that ZDDP protection cannot be extended to brass. Perhaps a resident chemist here can help us understand if that is true and why.
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    "A little does good" springs to mind. From the time unleaded fuel has been used exclusively here thee has been a product available at Service stations, and elsewere, know as Valvemaster. this is a phosphorous based substance which is designed to take the place of lead in protecting the valves and seats, leaving a microscopic surface residue which acts as a lubricant. It is designed to be used at a maximum doasage of one shot per 40 litres of petrol, and seems to perform it's job pretty well. What is not know of course is if any harm can come bynot using it, but that is probably another story. However, what has been established, is that some people with older cars have taken the attitude "If a little does, a lot must do heaps better". WRONG. Over-use of this additive has the same effect as the old super-leaded fuels, which left ash and residues on the valve faces, seats, stems and guides, leading to valve sticking and burning. In this layman's view, the oils supplied by the trade are quite capable of lubricating our old engines in far superior manner than the oils which were in use when our cars were originally manufactured. Now I'm going to sprinkle peanuts all over the front lawn to keep the tigers away.
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    Oil additives (?)

    Remember back in the old days Motors did not last very long. when every service station had a valve grind machine (even with Leaded Fuels) and a Mechanic on Duty to keep vehicles operational



    Technology, PCV Systems, Oil quality, etc all had a part in todays Engine longetivity.



    To use an Additive or not is an Individual choice.



    Another Option now is Catrol Oil has a Classic Car Oil now available. Syntec . Perhaps Ck it out on www.catrol.com.. Other Company's will likely follow suit.

    Is it a National Ploy among oil Companies to buy a Special Product? Dont know...
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