Oil Supplement - EOS
FYI
GM's EOS (Zinc Additive Pkg) has a new part Number #88862589 begining this month replacing old #1052367. There were some tenmporary Dealer out of Stocks due to a change in Supplier (not the ingredients) to GM...
As we all know Oils became far superior over time from the original crude products reaching a peak with Synthetics until Government Regulations began forcing removal of critical anti-wear additives because of potential Cat converter damage & enviromental concerns. Apparently Legislators forgot about the thousands of older vehicles needing some wear additives...
Im told by adding a bottle of EOS at oil changes that one can use any Brand oil but do what you please...
GM's EOS (Zinc Additive Pkg) has a new part Number #88862589 begining this month replacing old #1052367. There were some tenmporary Dealer out of Stocks due to a change in Supplier (not the ingredients) to GM...
As we all know Oils became far superior over time from the original crude products reaching a peak with Synthetics until Government Regulations began forcing removal of critical anti-wear additives because of potential Cat converter damage & enviromental concerns. Apparently Legislators forgot about the thousands of older vehicles needing some wear additives...
Im told by adding a bottle of EOS at oil changes that one can use any Brand oil but do what you please...
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Comments
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I've heard the zinc content has been reduced in this product too. How about using a cam break in oil like those offered by Lucas and Crane?0
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Hello,
The cam Lube that I have used Is pretty heavy to consider adding at changes. I have read where Castrol is coming out with Classic Car oils (Pre Cat converter cars) .0 -
If it is an 'Oil' to be added after Cam installation and recommended by the cam Manufacturer would be okay... Suggest asking their Tech Line for regular use0
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If you get a chance, check out #159 Crane cam shaft break-in oil. Also, Lucas makes a break-in oil additive with TB zinc plus or some such additive. A last resort for people wanting high ZDDP levels may be racing oils, such as those that don't have to meet the new standards for street vehicles.0
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---All good info above . Zinc content seems to be the only additive we should be concernd with . I read a real good article on supplements and they warn against upsetting chemical balances/reactions with additives which makes a lot of sense to me, and to not use the high viscosity oils used in all out raceing in street engines, Article also said do not go to the real low indexes also when useing multi viscosity oils. Don't hold their cling unless your in EXTREMELY LOW temps. They recommend 10-30 for cold climes in winter, and straight 30 for the summer and warm states That does'nt mean no raceing oils, just keep the viscosity proper for the temps you're operating in. To me that translates to any good detergant oil of proper wght with zinc and nothing more than zinc added. Also stated; zinc only comes into play when the oil film has sheared and guards against metal to metal contact. If we babied the throttle we might not even need it but I'm not one to be chancy with these old splasher engines. BUD0
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I have used Caterpillar Diesel Engine oil in my Hudsons for many years.
It comes in a 1-gal jug and part # 3E9714 and is a 15W-40 wt oil.
The Diesel oil has a0.09 or 900 ppm ZINC thats the only differance in gas oil.
Hope this helps Rudy0 -
I think OHV motors with all the (additional & heavier) valve train are more prone for potential cam wear than flatheads. Hudson tappets spin easily while cranking and when at speed rotate helping prevent wear.... But just in case....0
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Haven't we heard all this before?0
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Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:Haven't we heard all this before?
Indeed we have. Is that a problem?0 -
new article in "auto restorer". talks about problem of compatibility of an oil formulated for diesel engines/diesel operating temps/diesel combustion by-products used in gasoline engines with gasoline engine operating temps/gasoline combustion by-products. just because mixing in something sounds like a good idea, it may not be. to illustrate where bad info may come from the article references two SAE studies. one showing this might work, the other stating how it wouldn't. author of mechanic on duty column with 30+ years experience has not seen any problems using regular oil in the old engines and he sees more in a month than i will see in my life time. a cam manufacturer who has a problem will likely first point to something else before they accept responsibility. my two cents as well. regards, tp0
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A piece of interesting information from a chemist friend......
ZDDP (also referred to as ªzincº or ZDTP) is the acronym used for
zinc dialkyldithiophospate. ZDDP is used in motor oils to inhibit
oxidation of oils and to reduce engine wear. We are concerned here
primarily with its antiwear properties. Surprisingly, the exact way
in which ZDDP prevents wear is not known. One thought is that
when part of a modern motor oil, ZDDP plates out on the engine's
iron surfaces, including bearing surfaces and cam surfaces. If a
surface gets very hot, as happens when there is a large amount of
friction, the weak sulfur (or thio) bond is broken. This causes zinc
or zinc phosphate to be plated out on the bearing surface so that the
zinc or zinc phosphate becomes a sacrificial metal or salt. This
means the plated-out zinc or zinc phosphate is worn away rather
than the bearing surface. It's easy to see why it is desirable to have
ZDDP in a motor oil.
However, ZDDP does have some undesirable properties.
Surprisingly, it increases friction, not a good thing for a motor oil.
In addition, because it plates out on surfaces and the residual
phosphorus leaves an ash, too much ZDDP can foul spark plugs. Thus, as with most additives found in modern motor oils, the use of ZDDP must
be balanced by the amount of other additives. In the case of ZDDP,
it is especially important to have neither too much nor too little
detergent in the oil. Finally, too much ZDDP can attack the
boundary grains of iron. (I have also read in several places but
cannot confirm that excess ZDDP can produce sulfuric acid as it
breaks down.)
So what is the history of ZDDP in motor oils?
ZDDP was first used in motor oils developed for aircraft engines
around 1942. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range (or
300 ppm phosphorus by weight) were able to pass a corrosion test
introduced in 1942. Many of these engines were air cooled, run at
high rpm's and at high loads, i.e., conditions fairly different from
how our flathead engines were designed and operated. Around
1947, ZDDP was commercialized for automotive use.
In the mid-1950's, the phosphorus level from ZDDP was increased
to about 0.08% to deal with the friction caused by the use of highlift
camshafts, which increased the potential for scuffing and wear.
At this time, new tests of valve-train scuffing and
wear were developed by the automotive industry.
Also about this time, the industry discovered that more ZDDP was
not better. Although using more phosphorus reduced scuffing at
break in, longer term wear increased at phosphorus levels above
0.14%. In addition, at levels of about 0.20% phosphorus, the
ZDDP attacks the grain boundaries of iron, which can result in
camshaft spalling.
Oil thickening emerged as a problem in the 1960's with the higher
heat of high-load engines, e.g., those in muscle cars. Oils were
oxidizing and thickening to the point that engines could no longerpump it. In response, more ZDDP was added to motor oils as an
inexpensive antioxidant, raising levels of phosphorus to about 0.10%.
However, it has been found that ZDDP causes problems with the
longevity of the catalytic converters used for emission control in
modern cars. It poisons the catalytic converters and the residual ash,
caused by ZDDP combustion, clogs them. With cars lasting much
longer, the US Environmental Protection Agency began restricting the
amount of ZDDP in motor oils. The eventual goal is to have catalytic
converters last for 150,000 miles by 2009. Ironically, the long lives of
modern engines, caused in large part by modern motor oils themselves,
meant that the oils had to be reformulated. This reformulation has
occurred over several years. Since modern cars have roller lifters or
tappets, lower levels of ZDDP are not a problem for them. Most of our
flathead engines have been operated since 2001 using motor oils with
lower levels of ZDDP.
Using data supplied by the oil industry, we can list the approximate
recent levels according to year.
API Designation Year Percent Phosphorus
SH 1996 0.120
SJ & SL 2001&2004 0.100
SM 2005 0.080
The level of ZDDP in motor oil with the API designation of SM is
about the same as was used in the latter part of the 1950's. Our
flathead engines are not experiencing reduced levels of ZDDP. Instead
they are experiencing higher levels than were present in motor oils
when the engines were new.
In addition, it is not true that older engines have not been considered in
the reformulation. Because backward compatibility is important, the oil
industry has developed other types of antiwear and antioxidant
additives to compensate for the lower amount of ZDDP in motor oils.
These additives are now being used in current motor oils. It appears
that these additives are based upon boron and/or molybdenum.
In addition, two tests (also known as sequences) of motor oil, while not
using flathead engines, do use engines with valve trains that do not
contain roller followers (i.e., the engines had followers with sliding
friction, just like our flatheads). Sequence IVA uses a single overhead
cam engine with slider finger followers to test for camshaft scuffing
and wear. Sequence IIIG uses a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system to
check cam and lifter wear.
So What's the Problem?
There have been many reports of catastrophic failure of valve trains in
the last three years or so. Most of these appear to have occurred in
newly rebuilt engines with overhead valve engines equipped with flat tappet lifters, i.e., not equipped with roller tappets. However, as you
might expect, most of these engines had much stiffer valve springs than
found in our flathead engines. Over about the same period that ZDDP was being reduced in
motor oils, many U.S. suppliers of flat-tappet lifters reduced
capacity or closed production. As a result, many engine
rebuilders of high performance engines turned to lifters made by
off-shore companies. Reportedly these valve train components
too often used inferior metallurgy, poor finishes and improper
radii. (They were, however, affordable and available.)
Some other engines did not have catastrophic failure but instead
suffered non-catastrophic failure. Their valve train components
simply wore at an alarming rate. Reports for this type of failure
occurred in older pushrod, air cooled Porsches and motorcycles,
which is not really a surprise when you consider that ZDDP was
originally developed for air-cooled engines. Air-cooled engines
can have more stresses due to the fact that, compared to watercooled
engines, their operating temperature is more variable and
engine tolerances are often larger to account for more thermal
expansion.
The article I mentioned at the beginning of this article had a
chilling story of a 1946 Cadillac with a flathead engine. The
bronze gear failed very quickly when operated with a SM oil.
However, attributing this to the lower ZDDP levels in the SM
oil is incorrect for several reasons. First, the sample size was
simply too small to draw conclusions, i.e., there were too few
tests of too few bronze gears. Second, most commercial oils in
1946 didn't have ZDDP. If reduced ZDDP is a problem,
certainly all 1946 Cadillac engines would have failed quickly.
Finally and most convincingly, ZDDP does not act as an
antiwear additive for bronze metals. Remember it acts only on
metals containing iron. Something else had to be responsible
for the bronze gear failure. In my opinion, the bronze itself is
suspect. The machine shop that made the gears did not follow
the specs for the original bronze gear. Instead, they ªfound
material that they felt would be satisfactory.º I suspect those
materials were not satisfactory.
What does this mean for our flathead engines?
Unfortunately, there is more opinion than hard data on this
subject (and that includes this article). This makes it especially
important to check what facts we do have:
Fact: The motor oils used by our flathead engines when they
were new did not have ZDDP. Our engines lasted a long time
while using oil with no or low ZDDP.
Fact: While ZDDP is reduced in current motor oils, it is still
about the same level that was present in the mid-1950's, when
the heavier valve trains of overhead valve engines required it.
And those levels of ZDDP solved that problem.
Fact: Most of the catastrophic failures of valve trains occurred
in newly rebuilt engines with flat tappets during a period when
many cams of suspect quality were supplied by off-shore
manufacturers.
Fact: Despite several years of use of the newly formulated oils,
there have been no wide-spread reports of failures of valve
trains in our flatheads, in contrast to what you would
expect if there were a severe problem with these oils.
Fact: The oil industry strives to make oils backward compatible
and there are two sequences with engines somewhat similar to
our engines in terms of flat tappets. All of the current oils with
the SM designation must pass this test.
Continued on next post......0 -
To me this all suggests that unlike the muscle cars of the 60's
and 70's (or perhaps hotrodded flathead engines), our stock
flathead engines are not likely to have problems with the current
oils. However, some people have begun using diesel motor oil
and racing motor oils. This is problematic for two reasons. The
first is that these oils have very different additive packages that
are not designed for our engines and the way we use them.
Diesel oils tend to have very high levels of detergents, much
higher than are appropriate for our cars. These levels of
detergent can block or clean anti-wear films from metal parts.
In contrast to this, racing oils tend to have less aggressive
detergent packages. After all, the oil is changed after each race
and, in many cases, engines are torn down after a major race and
all parts are checked for wear. I don't know of anyone that
operates their flathead this way.
Others have turned to ZDDP additives, especially GM's EOS.
This was a short-lived solution because GM stopped offering it
in 2007. However, there still appears to be one additive that is
available thru the internet, ZddPlus. Anyone thinking of using
it should be aware that trying to improve on the additive
package found in current motor oils is likely a futile project for
an amateur. Recall that there are problems with too much
ZDDP and that detergent levels must be appropriately adjusted
for the amount of ZDDP. Although I'm a chemist, I wouldn't
attempt to improve on the current oils through the addition of
additives. Oil companies develop additive packages for their
motor oils by running a multitude of tests at a significant cost.
Instead, because our information is incomplete, I'm going to
continue to monitor information about ZDDP and motor oil as it
becomes available. At the same time, I will use the current
formulation of motor oil in my flathead. Some may decide to
pursue other solutions and I would not presume to tell someone
what they should do with their engine. As they say, ªYou pay
your money and you take your chances.º0 -
Its been fun reading the posts. My opinion is just used a good brand name motor oil change often and forget the additives. My family has been in the automotive end since cars came about, it kind of reminds me of customers who swore by STP additives years ago. To each his own.0
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OK, who else suspects that the ZDDP scare was perpetrated by people trying to create a market for their ZDDP additive products?
It stands to reason that if ZDDP were the premier anti-wear additive based on chemical knowledge of 60 years ago, the oils of today should have a better equilvalent.
For what it's worth, I've heard that ZDDP protection cannot be extended to brass. Perhaps a resident chemist here can help us understand if that is true and why.0 -
"A little does good" springs to mind. From the time unleaded fuel has been used exclusively here thee has been a product available at Service stations, and elsewere, know as Valvemaster. this is a phosphorous based substance which is designed to take the place of lead in protecting the valves and seats, leaving a microscopic surface residue which acts as a lubricant. It is designed to be used at a maximum doasage of one shot per 40 litres of petrol, and seems to perform it's job pretty well. What is not know of course is if any harm can come bynot using it, but that is probably another story. However, what has been established, is that some people with older cars have taken the attitude "If a little does, a lot must do heaps better". WRONG. Over-use of this additive has the same effect as the old super-leaded fuels, which left ash and residues on the valve faces, seats, stems and guides, leading to valve sticking and burning. In this layman's view, the oils supplied by the trade are quite capable of lubricating our old engines in far superior manner than the oils which were in use when our cars were originally manufactured. Now I'm going to sprinkle peanuts all over the front lawn to keep the tigers away.0
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Oil additives (?)
Remember back in the old days Motors did not last very long. when every service station had a valve grind machine (even with Leaded Fuels) and a Mechanic on Duty to keep vehicles operational
Technology, PCV Systems, Oil quality, etc all had a part in todays Engine longetivity.
To use an Additive or not is an Individual choice.
Another Option now is Catrol Oil has a Classic Car Oil now available. Syntec . Perhaps Ck it out on www.catrol.com.. Other Company's will likely follow suit.
Is it a National Ploy among oil Companies to buy a Special Product? Dont know...0
This discussion has been closed.
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