Engine Mount Bolts (Upside Down??)

[Deleted User]
[Deleted User]
edited November -1 in HUDSON
As I understand some basic engineering and mechanics from school....



The bolts for the front engine mount "should" go in from the top down with nut on the underside. Thus, if the nut should ever work lose and off, the bolt would not fall to the ground and the wieght of the engine would help keep everything together.



When I took mine out today to install the new ones I purchased from K-Gap (shameless plug), the nuts were on top.



What am I missing from this bit of Hudson engineering? Why would they install it with the bolt ready to fall should the nut come off?

Comments

  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    A Step down?..If you are talking about the front mounts, the single bolt you are looking at is welded to the upper plate which is vulcanized onto the rubber. That bolt , or threaded stud goes up through the engine front mounting plate. A nut holds it on.

    The two holes in the mount are bolted to the frame by two bolts and nuts. The bolts go down through the frame and nuts go on the bottom. The forces are different on each mount. The drivers side (left) is trying to hold the engine down during torque stress. The passenger side (right) is under compression . Hope this makes sense..
  • Uncle Josh
    Uncle Josh Senior Contributor
    Some Nut in the last 50 years or so put em on upside down. Warped thinking says that if ya can't see a hex head anymore, must be the bolt is gone.



    Good move to have new mounts in there too. Mine came apart on the tension side one time on an old 49 Super Six on a tight U-turn and the motor flopped over against the inner fender and pulled the carb linkage full open. A few exciting moments there until I could switch the key off.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    SuperDave wrote:
    A Step down?..If you are talking about the front mounts, the single bolt you are looking at is welded to the upper plate which is vulcanized onto the rubber. That bolt , or threaded stud goes up through the engine front mounting plate. A nut holds it on.

    The two holes in the mount are bolted to the frame by two bolts and nuts. The bolts go down through the frame and nuts go on the bottom. The forces are different on each mount. The drivers side (left) is trying to hold the engine down during torque stress. The passenger side (right) is under compression . Hope this makes sense..



    SORRY....My bad....Yes, it is the two bolts and nuts that mount the plate to the frame.



    So, mine were on WRONG and will NOW be corrected.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    SuperDave wrote:
    The forces are different on each mount. The drivers side (left) is trying to hold the engine down during torque stress. The passenger side (right) is under compression . Hope this makes sense..



    Correct. Torque created by the operation of the engine want to have the engine spin instead of making the car go forward. Something about least resistance.



    The engine mounts keeps this under control allowing the engine to put the power out the shaft and into the rest of the drivetrain.



    Hey...I am starting to get the hang of this stuff.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Uncle Josh wrote:
    Some Nut in the last 50 years or so put em on upside down. Warped thinking says that if ya can't see a hex head anymore, must be the bolt is gone.



    Good move to have new mounts in there too. Mine came apart on the tension side one time on an old 49 Super Six on a tight U-turn and the motor flopped over against the inner fender and pulled the carb linkage full open. A few exciting moments there until I could switch the key off.



    They will be put on correctly. I am getting Grade 8 with nylock nuts if they have them. Or I see of the little bolt shop has any castle nuts and bolts with holes for cotter pins.



    These were totally shot and squished. Whe I did get the engine up today, I found the left had separated from the plat and only the weight of the engine was holding it in place.
  • duncan
    duncan Expert Adviser
    I farmed for twentyfive years and my dad alwAYS SAID TO PUT THE NUT AND LOCKWASHER ON TOPbecaust gravity keeps the nut from turning so bolt cant come off if tight hudsonly duncan
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Duncan, I don't mean to contradict your Dad but I have seen bolts slowly but surely spin out from under a nut due to vibration. On the other hand I have never seen a bolt thread its way up and out of a hole though I'm guessing under the right conditions that could also happen. Vibrations cause some really bizarre things to happen. I often find trailer hitch balls with the nut all the way to the bottom of the bolt and ready to let the whole works they are towing loose..



    Harry
  • bobbydamit
    bobbydamit Expert Adviser
    Gentle men, take it from a hardware expert. The process of locking hardware is still in controversy. From a Forensic slant in the metallurgy business, the idea of a lock washer is to keep the hardware from moving under vibration. Ergo, the lock washer under the bolt prevents the bolt from turning. The lock washer under the nut does the same. If you have a suspect area that is prone to coming loose, do both. the best configuration is the lock under the nut, but in tightening the fastener, hold the nut and turn the bolt, thus allowing the lock to bite in under the nut. Theory is the bolt has more hystereses or drag, and the nut needs the lock more. Of course since I am a biker too, beside a Forensic Scientist in the metallurgy field, I use the best thread locker I can find, i.e. loc - tite, in the necessary applications.

    GOOD LUCK and always us the proper torque. It is usually the most common culprit.

    Technical support 101: !!!
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    bobbydamit wrote:
    Gentle men, take it from a hardware expert. The process of locking hardware is still in controversy. From a Forensic slant in the metallurgy business, the idea of a lock washer is to keep the hardware from moving under vibration.



    So which method holds more legal worth in the court system today? Bolt Top-down or Bolt Bottom-up?



    Not worried about lock washer as it is part of either process. Just the bolt.



    Hey, why don't you write an article for the WTN on the metals of our Hudsons, why it is still good and why some parts should be replaced is making repairs or restorations?
  • bobbydamit
    bobbydamit Expert Adviser
    Pacemaker500 wrote:
    So which method holds more legal worth in the court system today? Bolt Top-down or Bolt Bottom-up?



    Not worried about lock washer as it is part of either process. Just the bolt.



    Hey, why don't you write an article for the WTN on the metals of our Hudsons, why it is still good and why some parts should be replaced is making repairs or restorations?



    BOLTS DOWN, NUTS ON BOTTOM. BOTH SIDES. NO LEGAL WORTH TO EITHER, UNLESS YOUR FROM PHILLY, LOL:D
  • bobbydamit
    bobbydamit Expert Adviser
    Pacemaker500 wrote:
    So which method holds more legal worth in the court system today? Bolt Top-down or Bolt Bottom-up?



    Not worried about lock washer as it is part of either process. Just the bolt.



    Hey, why don't you write an article for the WTN on the metals of our Hudsons, why it is still good and why some parts should be replaced is making repairs or restorations?



    Bolt down either side. No legal referrence to either. Bolt down, new lock and nut on bottom, hold the nut and tighten the bolt. Standard hardware recommendations for ASME.
  • Clutchguy
    Clutchguy Senior Contributor
    Hey Guys,I don't know how many original Step-down engines mounts I've changed out,[maybe 50 pr's +],but the bolt always comes thru from the bottom,then the lock washer and the nut. The bolt is a 3/8-24 thread and is exactly the correct length to go thru the frame,mount and tighten to make the nut flush on the top. The same goes for the '47 and earlier cars and trucks.The mount is a 2 piece mount,bolt comes up thru the bottom. They are bolts with a special large washer,a spacer with a specific length[to insure you don't over tighten the rubber] another large washer that goes on top of the mount,before the engine support plate is on it,a star lock washer and the nut. I have found this bolt comes thru about 1/2 inch. I know that all these could not have been changes. The proper torque should be applied and the bolt,lock washer and nut will do the job. I don't think I have ever found these to be loose from the factory??.:cool:
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Clutch Guy wrote:
    but the bolt always comes thru from the bottom,then the lock washer and the nut.


    Hudson308 wrote:
    Yep, it would seem obvious that the bolt should go down through the mount into the frame, but all the original ones I've seen go from the bottom up. Go figure.



    Thank you, both.



    I will change them once I get home next week. I want them to be in the factory position should I ever be "inspected."
  • bobbydamit
    bobbydamit Expert Adviser
    You guys are great and I love ya all, well maybe not the nut case in CA that re-bought my old 54 Hornet Special. Anyway, fun is fun and we all like to talk the talk but the science of this does not rest on the bolt up or down, but the hardware and tightening method. End of story!

    It is not for the weak minded but for the scientific minded, to realize the big book of science is the one that has the final word. So lets read and put an end to this argument, and lets get to the end of the looks v.s. the factory. If you want to be like the factory, find an undisturbed factory Hudson and do the same as them. OR , Find a picture in a manual, Hudson Manual that is , to be [LIKE FACTORY ]. But look at the science of fastening to get the best clamp force, if you are just concerned with the best chance of a stable engine. I rest my Engineeering, Scientific Case once and for all.

    :cool:



    http://www.boltscience.com/pages/nutorbolttightening.htm



    Bob Aman

    Manager, Forensic Laboratory

    Senior Quality Engineer

    Thermoking Corporation

    Ingersoll Rand Climate Control Technologies

    314 West 90th Street

    Mail Stop 26

    Bloomington, MN 55420

    Phone: 952-887-2514

    FAX: 952-887-2383

    email: bob_aman@thermoking.com
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Well, it's good to see science has proven I've been tightening bolts correctly all these years, except of course for a short time back in the sixties when I was an unofficial tester for some pharmeceutical companies.



    Harry
  • bobbydamit
    bobbydamit Expert Adviser
    Wern't we all, well maybe not Jon, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    It looks like I'm gonna have to get a computer program now and take my laptop with me when I put my car back together. Otherwise it will fall apart.....lol
  • Huddy42
    Huddy42 Senior Contributor
    I have just checked the engine mount bolts on my VERY original 1942 Hudson Brougham which had 14,093 miles on speedo when I purchased it from the U.S.A.



    The bolts are fitted from the bottom up with a spring washer then a nut then a pal nut on the top of the engine plate.



    As far as I know the mounts have never been changed, so this would be from factory, bolts up through the mount, washer and nut ON TOP.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    If you do that then you'll have to address all your questions to Geoff Clark and the other boys from down under, as they'll be the only ones who will under stand your problems. We are very lucky that Geoff is bi-equatial and can help people from both sides of the equator or those of us who live on the upside would miss out on a lot of useful information.



    Harry
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