Cold air intake on twin H

Unknown
Unknown
edited November -1 in HUDSON
Hi , I was looking at my twin H carbs and the thought came to me that it might be a beneficial idea to install a K&N filter on the metal beside my radiator behind the grille and then run a 3 inch pipe of some kind up to my carbs and tee off into each carb.....has anyone tried this?

Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I would try to utilize a lower area, perhaps the area around below the fuel pump, or in front of the right motor mount area. Not out looking at the ole stepdown right now, not sure how the fan and radiator hose route around, but you really want to get that cold air intake closer to the road, and lower, the place you're considering sounds good, though...



    maybe you could reroute the cowl vent and use that as a CAI area? that would be cool.
  • junkcarfann
    junkcarfann Expert Adviser
    You want to be careful about having a low area intake such as Hudsonkid describes...a friend had a V6 Ford Ranger pickup factory equipped with a scoop-type intake pipe that picked up air in a lower area.



    She went though a fairly deep puddle, and enough water was sucked up to fill a cylinder with water, hydralicilly locking the engine. It bent a connecting rod, and cracked the head.



    Now I know that most folks would not drive their Hudson through fairly deep puddles, but no sense in building something that could seriously damage the engine.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    junkcarfann wrote:
    You want to be careful about having a low area intake such as Hudsonkid describes...a friend had a V6 Ford Ranger pickup factory equipped with a scoop-type intake pipe that picked up air in a lower area.



    She went though a fairly deep puddle, and enough water was sucked up to fill a cylinder with water, hydralicilly locking the engine. It bent a connecting rod, and cracked the head.



    Now I know that most folks would not drive their Hudson through fairly deep puddles, but no sense in building something that could seriously damage the engine.



    what I see a lot of people do, is put a spliter on these, like a valve, that does not allow the intake to suck up water. Regardless, you have to drive these with sense, if you install one, the risk is there...
  • junkcarfann
    junkcarfann Expert Adviser
    My friend got caught in a sudden heavy rainstorm while driving home, something that could happen while driving a Hudson to a meet on unfamiliar roads. So why risk it....
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    junkcarfann wrote:
    My friend got caught in a sudden heavy rainstorm while driving home, something that could happen while driving a Hudson to a meet on unfamiliar roads. So why risk it....



    the HP gain is terrific for the money spent on a CAI. I would only want to put one on if I installed a splitter valve, you're right, the risk is there, but at the same time, I would be careful.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Simply put a few one inch diameter holes in each tube/pipe. This will prevent suction from drawing in straight water or causing flexible tubes/pipes from collapsing and choking off air.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    But why go so low? There is a lot of room on a 54 grille just under the middle stainless and you wouldn't see it unless you really looked.

    My thinking is a 90 degree turn just as you come out of the sheet metal beside the rad and a filter across in front just below the middle stainless. Then a 3 inch pipe up to the carbs and split off with two 2 1/4 inch connections to the carbs. I might try it with flexible stuff first to see how well it works and then fabricate something that looks better for a permanent " nicer" look.



    Thoughts??
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    If you placed that right at the side of the grill the 54 grill would scoop air in very nicely. You do not need to go anywhere near the lower part of the car.
  • hornet53
    hornet53 Senior Contributor
    The 54 already has a functional scoop on the hood. Why not make use of that? You know, Twin-H-Ram-Air-Power.
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    FYI

    Believe it or not I have read that the best area to pull intake air from is the cowl area near the windshield. However, I have seen scoops pointed both forward & rearward on Muscle cars but feel the gain (if any) is very negligible at highway speeds. Most forward scoops have a 'baffle' to prevent soaking the filter if caught in rain.



    I think having low restriction air Filters benefit would be the same regardless of location...
  • 464Saloon
    464Saloon Senior Contributor
    hornet53 wrote:
    The 54 already has a functional scoop on the hood. Why not make use of that? You know, Twin-H-Ram-Air-Power.

    I was just going to say that. The 54 already has a functional scoop. I have put together many CAI systems on cars. If you have Twin H and want to keep the original air cleaners,it does pose a bit of a challenge if you want to seal them off to the scoop. I haven't quite come up with a way to do it yet, so my scoop just blows over the Twin H with K&N filters.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Ol Racer



    Two OEM systems were used by 70s muscle cars... Trans AM Firebird and the Chevy big block cars. Each system used a solenoid controlled rear facing air inlet to get cold air into the induction.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    WildWasp wrote:
    Ol Racer



    Two OEM systems were used by 70s muscle cars... Trans AM Firebird and the Chevy big block cars. Each system used a solenoid controlled rear facing air inlet to get cold air into the induction.



    This is really the best way to go about it.



    Furthermore, for an entirely UN-scientific observation:



    There is so much air turbulation coming down off of my stepdown windshield (with visor in place), it blows the cowl vent shut at highway speeds. I even went so far as to temporarily bungee it open when the Hornet gets a-flyin'.



    Even without the visor, enough cold air comes off of the windshield to be useful, particularly if the cowl vent were reversed and used as an entry point for an induction system.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Now that sounds like a "cool" idea.
  • 464Saloon
    464Saloon Senior Contributor
    Ol racer wrote:
    FYI
    Believe it or not I have read that the best area to pull intake air from is the cowl area near the windshield. However, I have seen scoops pointed both forward & rearward on Muscle cars but feel the gain (if any) is very negligible at highway speeds. Most forward scoops have a 'baffle' to prevent soaking the filter if caught in rain.

    I think having low restriction air Filters benefit would be the same regardless of location...


    I would beg to differ looking at how many cars were and still are manufactured with some form of ram air. Setting race cars aside as they all use them but are running speeds of 150+, stick your hand out the window at 60mph and you are hard pressed to keep it in place. There is no doubt there is something to be gained here. Now placement of that scoop is a whole different argument. The base of the windsheild is excellant,look what your cowl ventilator brings in, the very front of the car,like the 54's scoop is also good. Scoops that are in the middle of the hood like a Trans Am or GTO is questionable. The T/A's type is too far away from the windshield and the GTO's is so far up the hood that the air most likely goes right over the top, as it has been deflected up from the front of the car. At least it is getting cold outside air which is a big part of the battle IMHO.
  • junkcarfann
    junkcarfann Expert Adviser
    I don't know if this is important with a simple piped-in cold air intake, but if you ram a lot more are in, you are effectively leaning out the mixture, which can be disastrous.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    junkcarfann wrote:
    I don't know if this is important with a simple piped-in cold air intake, but if you ram a lot more are in, you are effectively leaning out the mixture, which can be disastrous.



    which is why I'm not really talking about ram air just cold air intake so as to avoid sucking in all that hot air off the rad. Maybe the fresh air coming in the small opening on the hood is enough to dilute that hot air, I dunno.

    Its an interesting discussion at any rate.
  • junkcarfann
    junkcarfann Expert Adviser
    Back in the day I helped a friend make a cold-air intake for a 1962 Ford with a 406 with a 4-barrel Holley. We cut 2 holes, (I think they were 3" diameter, but could have been up to 4"), one on each side of the radiator, and ran hoses up to the air cleaner.



    We then cut holes in the air cleaner body, and pop-riveted adaptors from a sheet-metal shop onto the air cleaner.



    As I recall, it was a fair amount of work, and, because he never actually timed the acceleration, it was hard to tell if they made a difference, because the car went like the dickens anyways.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I own a 1970 Formula 400 Firebird with functional ram air hood. Unlike the 60s and 75 and on Birds, the intake is at the front of the car just above the grill. Air entering the hood scoops (two) is forced through rubber boot connections which interface to the aircleaner which like ole racer recounts with the Ford, are two cold air inlets. The forced air assures gas pushed through the Quadra Jet carburator obtains a huge charge of air at all times.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Jimalberta wrote:
    which is why I'm not really talking about ram air just cold air intake so as to avoid sucking in all that hot air off the rad. Maybe the fresh air coming in the small opening on the hood is enough to dilute that hot air, I dunno.

    Its an interesting discussion at any rate.



    It is an interesting discussion, must be why I keep piping in on it.



    Another thought from the peanut gallery (me):



    I've read that one of the step-downs failings . . . and don't throw anything my way, yes there were a "few" . . . that was from the original design and has not changed half-a-century later, is the upper radiator lacked sufficient air flow to properly cool the hottest part of the radiator. Next time you take a good look through the grill bars on a step-down, note how much higher the upper half of the radiator is above the grill opening. Now, that said, all the heat from the radiator and engine gets trapped up in the top of that domed hood. A scoop in the front of the hood is going to do nothing but get MORE hot air into the intake. AROUND the radiator with hoses and into the intake would certainly offer more COLD air, which is the basis of the beginning of this thread. Additionally, the cowl vent idea would also allow more COLD air.
  • 464Saloon
    464Saloon Senior Contributor
    That is debatable as I don't think Hudson being as thorough as they were would have made a functional scoop if that was true. Also in one of my Hudson books it said the scoop according to Hudson increased performance as they were trying to do anything they could to survive by the time the 54's came out. It wouldn't be hard to test though. One could just tape a temp sensor on one of the air cleaners and tape the gauge to the cowl. Drive the car with the scoop open and read the temp,then stuff some rags in the scoop and run it again. Just for fun I'll dig around and see if I can come up with something like that and see what I come up with.
  • bent metal
    bent metal Senior Contributor
    I would like to see someone dyno test a Hudson with and without the cold air intake. I don't think the difference in performance is going to be very much, if any at all. It would look cool when you open the hood, but I doubt it will run any better.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    464Saloon wrote:
    That is debatable as I don't think Hudson being as thorough as they were would have made a functional scoop if that was true. Also in one of my Hudson books it said the scoop according to Hudson increased performance as they were trying to do anything they could to survive by the time the 54's came out. It wouldn't be hard to test though. One could just tape a temp sensor on one of the air cleaners and tape the gauge to the cowl. Drive the car with the scoop open and read the temp,then stuff some rags in the scoop and run it again. Just for fun I'll dig around and see if I can come up with something like that and see what I come up with.





    Rob-



    That would be "cool". I would be interested in your findings. It would put to rest some of my off-handed daydreamings, so to speak.
  • 464Saloon
    464Saloon Senior Contributor
    bent metal wrote:
    I would like to see someone dyno test a Hudson with and without the cold air intake. I don't think the difference in performance is going to be very much, if any at all. It would look cool when you open the hood, but I doubt it will run any better.

    It's a proven fact that cold air will increase performance and fuel economy. I have done enough of them on my cars and many others to prove it just for myself. I worked for a company (Gale Banks Engineering) that specialized in making products to improve air flow and performance. Cold air intakes were a big part of their product offerings. On average a good cold air system will increase power approximately 10%. That's 15 horsepower on the average Hornet engine. Now if you take it a level higher and force the air in,your increase will be even more. Any amount of positive pressure you can put in your intake system will increase your performance as you will get better cylinder filling and you will take a slight load off the engine having to pull all it's air in. The 54 Hornet scoop is in a good location but it is debateable how much differance it makes because it is not a sealed cold air induction to the carburators. One could be made quite easily if you did not care about your Twin H air cleaners which I know not all here have. I have Twin H and I like the origional air cleaners so sealing them to the scoop is a pretty difficult task.
  • bent metal
    bent metal Senior Contributor
    464saloon, everything you said makes sense, sounds like your right. I would just like to see someone test a Hudson both ways and see what kind of difference their is. I think the people that make and sell the cold air systems might claim 10%, I wonder if it really is that much? Not saying it isn't, because I don't know, I would just like to see it tested and not by a manufacturer.:D
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    bent metal wrote:
    I would like to see someone dyno test a Hudson with and without the cold air intake. I don't think the difference in performance is going to be very much, if any at all. It would look cool when you open the hood, but I doubt it will run any better.



    Id tend to agree with you on this one !!!!!!!
  • 464Saloon
    464Saloon Senior Contributor
    Other than testing what I mentioned before as whether the scoop on a 54 helps or not with temperature reduction, it would be impossible for an individual to test on their own for horsepower. You would need a dynomometer which is big $$$$ and even that would be for cold air only. You would not be able to test for ram air. As I mentioned before it is really basic physics. The cooler the air charge is, the denser it is and allows more air (oxygen) to be packed in the cylinder. For at least the last 20 years now,almost all vehicles manufactured have the air intakes outside the engine compartment. They in most cases are still very restricted for noise reasons. I just recently modified the air inlet on my bosses 94 Ranger. I opened up the area in the grill to get a straight shot at the intake opening and removed the cover at the opening which is there to reduce noise. My next move is to change to a larger duct as the one in it has dividers in it to again reduce noise. It is really silly what they think is noise with these OEM's. The truck still sounds exactly the same and he claims he is getting almost 2mpg better and is not having to shift down from 5th to 4th on the hills going to and from work. He drives about 35 miles each way and has had the same vehicle for 5 years. How is that for proof ;)
  • Ol racer
    Ol racer Senior Contributor
    FYI

    I suspect any 'ram effect' would only be noticable at (high) speed and without some sort of 'baffle' the drawbacks (bugs/dirt/water) might outweigh the benefit. I remember altering the metering rods (allowing more fuel & airflow), then increased the Air filter size. However, I think a ram set-up would look nice on a Hudson motor regardless of power/economy gain....A modern low restriction larger dia. Air filter would increase air flow (power) without drawbacks. Just my personal opinion...



    I am sketical on the advertised power/milage gain from aftermarket Air Intake systems. I just enlarge (or remove) the factory restrictive filter & 'snorkel'..
  • dwardo99
    dwardo99 Expert Adviser
    Warning! We did this exact thing on our Hornet with the single carb. We used a Chevy truck air cleaner with a snorkel which is piped to a hole between the grille bars off to the side of the radiator. Lots of air. Problem is, it screws up the functioning of the carb. When you take your foot off the gas for a couple of seconds and press down again, there is a huge bog. Also, it seems like it doesn't run quite right at cruise speed. My thinking is that there is enough pressure built up in the system to affect the fuel needles, which I believe are vacuum-controlled in the WGD carb. Anyhow, we took it off and just use the pipe to get some cold air under the hood near the carb. Maybe the WA-1 carb would react better. I think if a more modern carb was used it would work well. Just my .02.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Without any position on the effects of these mods... I offer the following suggestion: The Hudson radiator cooling is dependant on making sure the metal baffle and rubber seals are in place. The radiator is huge and to obtain the best cooling result all the original pieces must be working...with that said, under hood heat evacuation is totally dependant on the movement of air through the radiator and out of the engine compartment via the underside of the car. If one were to take air being pushed from a frontal area of the Hudson and pipe it to the fuel pump area and the carburetor body the effects of moving this high heat away from these heat sensitive components may be beneficial? I really do not know... the other factor that comes to mind is the heat soak the engine compartment receives when the car is stopped after a drive. If there was a way to use a thermostatically controlled fan that continues to evacuate under hood air.. That would reduce the fuel pump and carb percolation? Just a penny and 1/2 from HOT.
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