Hornet Frame
Has anyone ever replaced an entire Hornet frame?Not the risers just the horizonal sections. I know they are mono built and would be a big project. My problem is I have one Hornet that is in good shape with the exception of the frame and another that is a basket case with a good frame. (Never get my cake and eat it too)
Jusy wondering if I'm the only guy that is dumb enough to try this?
Hope ya all had a great new year!!!
Dusty
Jusy wondering if I'm the only guy that is dumb enough to try this?
Hope ya all had a great new year!!!
Dusty
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Comments
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No, You're not. Been there done that. PM me if you want the story. It was successful but it's not for the faint of heart.0
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I did about parts of mine on my current project. Hudzilla's right-not for the faint of heart.0
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Go to my web site and down load the Hudson frame repair paper. This paper shows the actions taken by another Hudson Convertible restorer in removing good sedan pieces to repair the convertible. Note Hudson provided all of these pieces as individual repair parts. They are shown in the parts catalogs.0
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Wonder if anyone ever found a cache of those frame rail repair parts or if Hudson only made them to order for body shops repairing monobuilt cars that were in fender benders??? There's been discussion on the board before about repro-ing rear frame rails.0
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Aaron D. IL wrote:Wonder if anyone ever found a cache of those frame rail repair parts or if Hudson only made them to order for body shops repairing monobuilt cars that were in fender benders??? There's been discussion on the board before about repro-ing rear frame rails.
I have a pair[L&R] of the frame rails from front to back. They were crash repair parts and would probably not be to hard to reproduce. But who do you trust with these,not to lose or ruin??:eek:0 -
A good first step would be to have someone take measurements and do a set of detailed fabrication drawings for the frame rails.
I belong to a group for a specific model of Honda motorcycles on Yahoo. Honda made a luggage rack that mounted behind the seat for these bikes but they are almost impossible to find now and there are WAY more bikes than the number of racks that were made. Somebody would post to the group about once a week asking where they could buy one of these Honda luggage racks. Finally, one of our members removed his rack and paid a designer to produce detailed engineering drawings using it as a guide. He got enough members to commit to buy the drawings CD for ~$30 each to pay for the cost of the designer's time. Then he sold the drawings on CD for a reasonable fee. If you want a rack, you buy the CD from him, print the drawings, take them to a fabrication shop in your area, and have them build you a rack.
It seems this would be a good approach for the frame rails. This avoids somebody having to make a huge investment in a limited run of frame rails and then try to sell them. It would also be good because people could have only what they need fabricated (i.e.- a partial frame rail).
Hugh0 -
Clutch guy wrote:I have a pair[L&R] of the frame rails from front to back. They were crash repair parts and would probably not be to hard to reproduce. But who do you trust with these,not to lose or ruin??:eek:
I'd trust Bent Metal!
If you've seen the pictures of his work - its outstanding!
Of course I can't say he'd be interested in the project, but if it's anything "metal" I'd think he would be.
Having patterns and the ability to reproduce these particular parts would be the "Holy Grail" for Hudson restorations, hot-rods, flower planters etc.0 -
Good idea Hugh's Hornet, I know if I had a set of drawings I could reproduce the pieces I need.0
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rambos_ride wrote:I'd trust Bent Metal!
If you've seen the pictures of his work - its outstanding!
Of course I can't say he'd be interested in the project, but if it's anything "metal" I'd think he would be.
Having patterns and the ability to reproduce these particular parts would be the "Holy Grail" for Hudson restorations, hot-rods, flower planters etc.
Thank you Dan, nice of you to say. Yeah, I'm sure I could make them. They would be a little tricky to make. It's thick sheet and the size of the rectangular box changes. It doesn't stay the same dimension through the entire length. ...Anyone want to place an order?:D;)0 -
bent metal wrote:Thank you Dan, nice of you to say. Yeah, I'm sure I could make them. They would be a little tricky to make. It's thick sheet and the size of the rectangular box changes. It doesn't stay the same dimension through the entire length. ...Anyone want to place an order?:D;)
If they were available, I'd buy a set for a future project.0 -
Bent since you are making frames I would like you to make complete bodies ala Year One Mustang and Camaro bodies. I know you can do it I believe in you. I will kick in a hundred bucks for you to get you body press's setup. If you can build 1500 bodies per year we should be good.0
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51hornetA wrote:Bent since you are making frames I would like you to make complete bodies ala Year One Mustang and Camaro bodies. I know you can do it I believe in you. I will kick in a hundred bucks for you to get you body press's setup. If you can build 1500 bodies per year we should be good.
Somebody is already making Camaro bodies . . . '69 vintage, if I remember right.0 -
Yup Year 1 and I want Bent to do the same for Hudson. He can call himself Year 2.0
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Better yet!! When GM and Chrysler go down, Bent Metal can start the Hudson Motor Car Company!! Hydrogen Hudson Hornets!0
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Yup Twin H which is Twin Hydrogen injectors.....I am sure Bent can get up to 50,000 cars per year if he cuts back some hours on his day job. Its all about passion. Bent knows I am good for $100 toward the dream.0
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Hahaha, great ideas, all of them. HEY, why not! They make 32' Fords brand new!:rolleyes:hmm:D0
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51hornetA wrote:Yup Twin H which is Twin Hydrogen injectors.....I am sure Bent can get up to 50,000 cars per year if he cuts back some hours on his day job. Its all about passion. Bent knows I am good for $100 toward the dream.
If that project gets off the ground, I'd move to be a part of it!
402BOWTIE-
I wish I could see your avatar better. What is that car on the trailer and has it been rolled? It looks like the windshield header is munched.0 -
I wonder if Art Morrison's shop could do this job? If you get Street Rodder Magazine (Feb. 2009) look at page 148. They are building frames that are made of rectangular tubing and they look great. Maybe they could make pieces or entire frames? ...If your not familiar with Art Morrison chassis, they are awesome, and the welding on the joints is unbelievably perfect.0
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RL Chilton wrote:If that project gets off the ground, I'd move to be a part of it!
402BOWTIE-
I wish I could see your avatar better. What is that car on the trailer and has it been rolled? It looks like the windshield header is munched.
That's my brothers car, it's a 52 hornet convt. It was pretty much stripped when he bought it last spring. I'm signing him up to a HET membership cause he's going to need a lot of parts and help!!:eek::D You are a great inspiration!! Keep those pictures coming!!!0 -
It looks like she's got potential. If y'all need anything, don't hesitate to ask, and keep your eye on the prize.0
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As Bent Metal points out- "It's thick sheet and the size of the rectangular box changes. It doesn't stay the same dimension through the entire length". This would be the hardest part to make. It narrows more than 1/2 inch as it goes to the front. The inside is mostly flat sheet metal. I also have several of the body tools and body jacks that are shown in the Hudson body repair manual. There are alot of different ends and diferent confiquations on them that go in certain positions when straightening and repairing Stepdown bodies. After looking at them,we have come a long in frame repair tools!!! Most have left and right threads on them,1 has a hydralic cylinder,1 has been converted from a hydralic cylinder. I'm guessing these would have had to come from a larger dealership because as I stated,they are well used and plentiful. These came out of Chicago more than 40 years ago.:cool:0
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Clutch guy wrote:I have a pair[L&R] of the frame rails from front to back. They were crash repair parts and would probably not be to hard to reproduce. But who do you trust with these,not to lose or ruin??:eek:
Reproduction of discontinued metal parts is an everyday on-going activity in the aircraft industry. Aircraft fuselages are basically a UNI-Body frame with metal wrapped around it... sound familiar? Most aircraft replacement pieces are based on engineering which is resurrected and sent to metal fabricators to produce the part. But, really obscure pieces (May I compare to Hudson frame rails?) are usually the result of "reverse engineering". Reverse engineering is not a new or unusual practice. Many metal fabricators use this process as the basis for short run custom piece production. The basic reverse engineering will include careful examination of the original part followed by creation of mechanical characteristics engineering drawing that captures those characteristics. Besides the tried and true engineering drawing capture, there are several other special means to get the reverse engineering completed. One of those is laser lithography. This method uses an original piece... many times a used part, as the basis from which the process derives engineering needed to reproduce the part. Think of this process as a laser scan of all surfaces of the original part. The laser scan is a very precise measurement of the part which is converted into a 3 dimensional wire frame engineering model. That wire frame can be input to existing engineering and computer controlled manufacturing tools and interfaces. The beauty of this system is a metal fabricator can use this type of input to create the end product. Further more, the availability of this engineering to automated fabrication businesses allows that business to insert the manufacturing of the part into existing production schedules.
The point of my dissertation is: Clutch guy has the NOS OEM parts; the tools to capture the engineering characteristics of the parts are available. Once the capture is complete, the ability to produce the pieces is assured. Using this method can reduce the cost of manufacture as well as assure the OEM specifications are imbedded into all future pieces. This type of reverse engineering and manufacturing is a well understood and is directly applicable to this type of task.
This could be a way to assure a stock of frame pieces remanufactured to OEM specs... just takes time and money.
Trivia... Hudson Uni-body manufacturing was learned when Hudson became a supplier to the WWII aircraft industry. Stamped steel or aluminum was used to frame the aircraft. A strong light weight means of creating a fuselage or car body.
Cheers0 -
402Bowtie wrote:That's my brothers car, it's a 52 hornet convt. It was pretty much stripped when he bought it last spring. I'm signing him up to a HET membership cause he's going to need a lot of parts and help!!:eek::D You are a great inspiration!! Keep those pictures coming!!!
Hi Bowtie...
Your post shows Omaha, are you and your brother in Omaha? Lots of Hudson club activities in Omaha, lived there from 72 - 80. That convertible was sold on ebay right?
Cheers0 -
I think Ken basically reiterated what I said except much more precisely.
Note also that (depending on whether you want a 100% accurate restoration) you wouldn't necessarily have to duplicate the manufacturing methods originally used. It would probably be possible to produce completely workable frame rail reproductions using more pieces, different forming methods, etc. compared to the original.
Hugh0 -
As to Ken's method of Laser lithography: this is precisely the method used by Brookville's '32 Ford Roadster and Coupe bodies, Steve's Auto Restoration's '34 Ford Roadster and Coupe. A digital "scan" was made of an unmolested original car. The computer used was able to "read" this information, then fed into a very large milliing machine, which carved the dies used to stamp the body panels. Voila'! Brand new '32, '33, '34 Ford Bodies, exactly like Henry made ('cept better). A digital scan could be made of Clutch Guy's frames and instead of CNC'ing dies, the information could simply be printed to be used as a set of blueprints to manually remanufacture the frames.0
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402 is that the Hudson that was in north east Wyoming around Gillette ?0
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Ken and Stateline, This was on ebay last spring. It was located in South Dakota. The guy that my brother bought it from said he thought it was a Mercury and bought it out of Nebraska. Finding out that it was'nt he decided to sell it. As you can see it needs quite a few of the convertible parts. Does anyone have available the convertible top bows for these things? Or will it end up topless or Carson top.0
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402Bowtie wrote:Ken and Stateline, This was on ebay last spring. It was located in South Dakota. The guy that my brother bought it from said he thought it was a Mercury and bought it out of Nebraska. Finding out that it was'nt he decided to sell it. As you can see it needs quite a few of the convertible parts. Does anyone have available the convertible top bows for these things? Or will it end up topless or Carson top.
402BOWTIE-
I'll try and keep this as upbeat as possible. I hate being a nay-sayer, so let me offer my experience, although limited as it is. I recently stated in an earlier thread that I network with 80-90 Hudson people daily. Not all of them daily, but that I network daily to at least someone, even just here on the forum. I've done this for the last 5 years. I never fail to ask about top irons for a convertible with every new Hudson person or peoples I meet.
All step-down top irons are the same with the exception of the Hornets and Commodores had some of the parts chrome-plated, whereas the same parts on other models were painted. You would think that with 7 years of production, you could find a set around here or there.
And you can.
And I have.
Trouble is, the ones I've found belong to folks who don't want to let them go.
ANYTHING can be made. There are parts and pieces that could be used for patterns to reproduce any part that makes up a stepdown top iron, bow, bracket, you name it. It was metal, it was made by man, it can be made again. Throw enough money at a project and you too can have a Tucker!
Or anything else, for that matter.
You have to ask yourself, "how important is originality for my project and what am I willing to go through to get it?"
Answer to that question will determine your path.
Like I said, I hate to be the nay-sayer, but calling up the local Hudson Man and picking up a complete set of top irons that happen to be laying out on the back 40, while possible, in my experience . . . . highly, highly unlikely.
If you choose to go the Carson Top route, you should contact Bill Albright (you should contact him anyway), as he has made one for a convertible . . . a yellow one, if I remember right.0 -
Heart Of Texas wrote:Reproduction of discontinued metal parts is an everyday on-going activity in the aircraft industry. Aircraft fuselages are basically a UNI-Body frame with metal wrapped around it... sound familiar? Most aircraft replacement pieces are based on engineering which is resurrected and sent to metal fabricators to produce the part. But, really obscure pieces (May I compare to Hudson frame rails?) are usually the result of "reverse engineering". Reverse engineering is not a new or unusual practice. Many metal fabricators use this process as the basis for short run custom piece production. The basic reverse engineering will include careful examination of the original part followed by creation of mechanical characteristics engineering drawing that captures those characteristics. Besides the tried and true engineering drawing capture, there are several other special means to get the reverse engineering completed. One of those is laser lithography. This method uses an original piece... many times a used part, as the basis from which the process derives engineering needed to reproduce the part. Think of this process as a laser scan of all surfaces of the original part. The laser scan is a very precise measurement of the part which is converted into a 3 dimensional wire frame engineering model. That wire frame can be input to existing engineering and computer controlled manufacturing tools and interfaces. The beauty of this system is a metal fabricator can use this type of input to create the end product. Further more, the availability of this engineering to automated fabrication businesses allows that business to insert the manufacturing of the part into existing production schedules.
The point of my dissertation is: Clutch guy has the NOS OEM parts; the tools to capture the engineering characteristics of the parts are available. Once the capture is complete, the ability to produce the pieces is assured. Using this method can reduce the cost of manufacture as well as assure the OEM specifications are imbedded into all future pieces. This type of reverse engineering and manufacturing is a well understood and is directly applicable to this type of task.
This could be a way to assure a stock of frame pieces remanufactured to OEM specs... just takes time and money.
Trivia... Hudson Uni-body manufacturing was learned when Hudson became a supplier to the WWII aircraft industry. Stamped steel or aluminum was used to frame the aircraft. A strong light weight means of creating a fuselage or car body.
Cheers
Yeah, that's what Art Morrison is doing with frames.0 -
I have extra pieces for the top mechanism, but probably not a complete set. I know that some parts that I have (which are cast) are broken. If interested, let me know, and next weekend I will try to take an inventory. Would love to do some trading for a convertible back seat lower cushion (possibly a top seat back too), and/or the rear window regulators that were used on the Super convertibles.0
This discussion has been closed.
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