Hudson Values And "Matching Number" Engines

[Deleted User]

With all the discussion on the high price of convertibles, it occured to me that no one ever mentions a "matching number engine" in any of these ads. Anyone who has been involved in the classic car market knows the added market value of having the original engine block in the car. This is especially true when it comes to muscle cars and Corvettes. Just seems odd to me that there is not more interest or discussion about having the original matching number engine when discussing a Hudson that is forsale. I'd be curious to hear from others on this point.



Another interesting observation is to compare the value of a convertible Hudson to that of a convertible 55,56 or 57 Chevy. The Hudsons are now pulling in more dough. I know there are alot less Hudson convertibles made than the tri-year Chevy's but it is interesting just the same since the Chevy's are a worldwide icon. I guess it is simply supply and demand?



Regardless, I would bet that all Hudson stepdown values will increase significantly in the next couple years. I say this because of the high cost and rarity of convertibles (trickle down effect), the increase in interest in Hudsons, the relative rarity of the Hudson and the fact that the Hudson Stepdown was a very special, historically significant car. It was fast, it was one of the best looking cars of the period and it was simply just a superior car in almost every way. I would add that what is good for one Hudson is good for all Hudsons. Niels

Jay_G

I agree it ia all demand vs supply and I agree that Hudson and especially the stepdowns are getting more interest. I think this is due to NASCAR and to all the old car shows on the tv. People forgot Hudson and what they did. Right now I am getting a lot of people asking me about my stepdown because they think is looks like the merc and would be nice to rod. I have no problems with this because it means more people in the hobby and more parts and aftermarket parts in the market. I have been working on my 53 hornet on and off and as money permits for 15 years and I just love it to death. Right now I am having a wireing harness made a Y & Z for it. To tell you the truth I was shocked at the state of the engine compartment, I would have thought it to be better looking and cleaner. Maybe pictures don't show everything and I certanly hope the numbers matched. Mine would but the block was cracked in 5 places and just was not worth fixing. I am thinking of making a table out of it at some point or maybe if I find a good shop to fix it I will rebuild it and put it back into the car (the next time I do a restoration on the car 20 years from now).

Jay

rambos_ride

Even as little as 10-15 years ago "matching numbers" brand X cars were getting harder and harder to come by and then to provide the matching documentation to prove it even rarer.



I think it is easier to get that kind of information for the BrandX stuff because most all the pertinent Hudson information (from what I have heard) was trashed when AMC/NASH/HUDSON was formed.



Now even at big name auctions and car shows they have recognized this fact and it is now acceptable to have a "period correct" motor/trans and you take very little hit on the price nowadays compared to before.



Of course this is just my opinion so take it for what its worth!

Unknown

I think that a lot of Hudson people had a reality check, and the matching numbers engine is not made into a big issue. This is why you see a lot of pre-Hornets with 308's in them (which i think is an improvement) or even any higher end stepdown from 48-51 usually ends up twin h powered....



I have seen many AACA cars that are twin H equipped, and I doubt these cars were dinged for any points. Further, some of these cars even had power steering, and even air! My thoughts are that the Hudson folks don't try to hide the fact that they have, what in general, would be considered incorrect factory equipment, and are not so into the number games that they are "restamping" correct date code blocks to match their specific number needs....



I have talked to many people that have cars that fall into that classification where there needs to be a numbers matching block, and the ca must be equipped with the correct date coded cigarrette lighter, I mean, come on, how fun is that? THere are people out there constantly manufacturing correct numbers matching blocks, the worst part now, seems to be finding one with the correct date casting.



You would think that a hobby that is so driven by numbers, people would realize that this is going on, and most of the people that purchase these high dollar "numbers matching" vehicles, either don't know, or don't want to know the true history.



I would be surprised that Hudson's would ever see any kind of price fluctuation in term of numbers matching blocks, when you consider your options as a restorer, why wouldn't you opt for a hornet motor in your 48, if you got it available? or why would you not want to use a 56 Hydraulic lifter 308, if you got a good one? Not to mention twin H, or PS or any other options that are available, I think that Hudson owners view these "modifications" as correct period improvements, and honestly should be viewed as such.



Hopefully, the mindset of the 5-6-7 crowd never infects us Hudson lovers, and we are able to enjoy our part of the hobby for what it is.



Also, just because one Hornet convertible achieved the price level of a 57 chevy, does not necessarily qualify it to be at or above the price level of 57's... I would like to see what happens when another on hits the auction block, and see what happens then.



Finally, let's just ask ourselves.... What would you rather have, a Hornet convertible, or a 5-6-7 chevy convertible? (regardless of market price...)

[Deleted User]

hudsonkid wrote:

I think that a lot of Hudson people had a reality check, and the matching numbers engine is not made into a big issue. This is why you see a lot of pre-Hornets with 308's in them (which i think is an improvement) or even any higher end stepdown from 48-51 usually ends up twin h powered....



I have seen many AACA cars that are twin H equipped, and I doubt these cars were dinged for any points. Further, some of these cars even had power steering, and even air! My thoughts are that the Hudson folks don't try to hide the fact that they have, what in general, would be considered incorrect factory equipment, and are not so into the number games that they are "restamping" correct date code blocks to match their specific number needs....



I have talked to many people that have cars that fall into that classification where there needs to be a numbers matching block, and the ca must be equipped with the correct date coded cigarrette lighter, I mean, come on, how fun is that? THere are people out there constantly manufacturing correct numbers matching blocks, the worst part now, seems to be finding one with the correct date casting.



You would think that a hobby that is so driven by numbers, people would realize that this is going on, and most of the people that purchase these high dollar "numbers matching" vehicles, either don't know, or don't want to know the true history.



I would be surprised that Hudson's would ever see any kind of price fluctuation in term of numbers matching blocks, when you consider your options as a restorer, why wouldn't you opt for a hornet motor in your 48, if you got it available? or why would you not want to use a 56 Hydraulic lifter 308, if you got a good one? Not to mention twin H, or PS or any other options that are available, I think that Hudson owners view these "modifications" as correct period improvements, and honestly should be viewed as such.



Hopefully, the mindset of the 5-6-7 crowd never infects us Hudson lovers, and we are able to enjoy our part of the hobby for what it is.



Also, just because one Hornet convertible achieved the price level of a 57 chevy, does not necessarily qualify it to be at or above the price level of 57's... I would like to see what happens when another on hits the auction block, and see what happens then.



Finally, let's just ask ourselves.... What would you rather have, a Hornet convertible, or a 5-6-7 chevy convertible? (regardless of market price...)

Every single restored stepdown convertible that I am aware of that has been sold in the last year (I think atleast 5 or 6 ) has been sold for much higher than the avg 57 Chevy Convertible. The latest Hemmings put the 57 Chevy convertible at "only" $28 to $80 grand, the avg selling for $50 grand. My only original point is that 57 Chevys are one of the benchmarks in classic cars and it is nice to see Hudsons making a name for themselves. Also, I see nothing wrong with the mindset of the tri- chevy crowd (whatever that is). They and some other Brand X's have alot of cars to pick from and lots of after market repro stuff that makes it easy to fix one up quickly, enjoy, drive and show it. I'm with you in Hudson being Hudson. I was just curious to know the mindset on the importance of matching numbers with the Hudson crowd since keeping originality is simply one of the laws of nature in the classic car world. Seems a shame to take a nice completely original car and permanently modify it to something different. I'm not talking about things like power steering and A/C. These can be removed if necessary, no big deal. There aren't many Hudsons around. If a Hudson needs major work, missing parts, etc then use what you are able to obtain or afford, Hudson or otherwise, get it driving and let people and the owner enjoy it. Regarding matching numbers, it all goes back to supply and demand. It is just a simple fact that a collector, if given a choice, would prefer an original engine rather than non original. Niels

Unknown

dont forget porkys

Aaron D. IL

To my knowledge numbers matching has never been a big deal with the Hudson crowd. Maybe because they're not as plentiful as Chevies and we're just glad to see them on the road. I'm not even sure that all block numbers on all years match the serial numbers from the factory. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone correct me if I'm wrong !!!!

My Pacemakers has a 232 OD trans from another car...same correct setup for the year and model but only a Hudson afictionado would know the difference. There is lot of engine mixing and matching using Hudson parts from the step-down era. Even when they were slightly used cars Dealers like Jim Moran would put Hornet engines in Pacemakers to make them more saleable with a "Baby Hornet" badge on them.

[Deleted User]

Aaron D. IL wrote:

To my knowledge numbers matching has never been a big deal with the Hudson crowd. Maybe because they're not as plentiful as Chevies and we're just glad to see them on the road. I'm not even sure that all block numbers on all years match the serial numbers from the factory. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone correct me if I'm wrong !!!!

My Pacemakers has a 232 OD trans from another car...same correct setup for the year and model but only a Hudson afictionado would know the difference. There is lot of engine mixing and matching using Hudson parts from the step-down era. Even when they were slightly used cars Dealers like Jim Moran would put Hornet engines in Pacemakers to make them more saleable with a "Baby Hornet" badge on them.

This is interesting stuff to me and exactly why I asked the question. I know my 48 Commodore six has matching numbers. I haven't gotten my 52 Hornet coupe delivered yet but engine looks like it will be original. If not, no big deal as long as it is correct (and it is). Niels

rambos_ride

nhp1127 wrote:

This is interesting stuff to me and exactly why I asked the question. I know my 48 Commodore six has matching numbers. I haven't gotten my 52 Hornet coupe delivered yet but engine looks like it will be original. If not, no big deal as long as it is correct (and it is). Niels

Matching numbers alone are great - but for the big bucks - you need "matching" documentation to prove its authenticity as being original.



Build sheets, work orders, sales receipts, dealer documentation etc... would really add some value to the car.



But these days period correct will get you almost the same in valuation if done properly.



Someday - I'll have a stock version of a stepdown in my Dream Garage....

[Deleted User]

A matching-numbers block also lets you know that the car really IS what it is. If you have to have a 308 Hornet coupe and the number on the front of the block matches with the VIN, life is good and you're not getting what was originally a 262 2-bbl car, for example. What Aaron was saying about date-coded bolts, carbs, filters, even tires and wheels, goes beyond the absurd to cars that only see the light of day when the trailer opens up and the car is rolled, not driven, out. Who wants a show queem you can't ever drive?? What's the point of having a perfect car no one will see?



Drive them.

Unknown

Where does one know if an engine/chassis is a match on a 47 pickup? Where do you look? Does the engine number match the vehicle serial number?



I think I read somewhere that the engine number is underneath the cooling system side cover or some other inaccessible spot?



Warren

Unknown

Drive it and enjoy it. Who cares about matching numbers other than some one interested in making big bucks. The HET club was founded on driving the things. In the 40 years that I have been associated with the HET club I have seen any number of sedans converted to convertibles and passed off as RESTORED including two Terraplane 8 converts and these same people will damn streetrods time and time again.

Unknown

Personally I don't usually care about matching numbers except in specific circumstances, but in this case I've been asked by a possible buyer and now I'm curious to know if it is technically possible to verify 'matching' numbers or if there just isn't enough info on a truck to do it.



Normally I'm just amazed that vehicles this old aren't all found with random engines by the time they've survived this long!

Geoff

Matching-smatching - who gives a stuff? My '29 Hudson is made up with parts from five different cars, but it all hangs together as a genuine '29 7 passenger sedan, and who's going to know the difference? My '28 Essex is like grandpa's axe which has had three handles and two heads. But it still looks and drives like a genuine '28 Essex. My Hornet and Jet both have different engines, but they both drive like genuine original cars. If nit-picking detail is your thing go for it, but so long as your car looks and drives like it should I don't figure anybody should be worried. Some people are in this hobby for what they can make out of it, me I just enjoy driving my cars. My two cents worth.

Geoff.

[Deleted User]

Regardless of resale values, etc, wanting to know if a car / truck has the original engine is a very legitimate question when buying ANY car. Niels

Unknown

Niels...



you know we only know of two cars on this board....



Hudsons and Brand X



I think the question is legitimate... here's why....



Actually, i think that this can be approached in two ways...



1)Original type engine.... meaning a 308 in a pacemaker, or a correct, but not numbers matching 232 in a pacemaker, or the likes... (gosh.. seems I am caught up on engine swaps in pacemakers...) I think this is a more preferred approach than the next one, at least the owner took the time and consideration to preserve something that essentially they are a caretaker of, not stepping back and saying "wow" if I put this mustache on the mona lisa I bet it will look better, and I can because it is mine, and I can do what I want...



whether the original engine was not available, or had other issues or concerns, is why the owner took the direction he or she did. For example, i got another 262 50 Hudson engine in my 50 commodore. I got the original engine (numbers matching) but decided to use the engine that is currently in the car over the correct numbers matching block. Guess what? the next engine that will likely go into the car is a sweet 54 308 that has been promised to me. I will maintain the original engine to keep it with the car, if ever me and the car separate company, but because I own it, I think that since I have not butchered the car, and used all hudson correct parts ,it is an acceptable interchange.



This also applies to a 56 ford, or a 53 olds, or whatever you look at. I think this method of at least using a correct "period" engine of same manufacturer, is acceptable, and should not have any effect on the value, or the legitimacy of purchasing a vehicle, especially if this is something the seller is happy to disclose. The problem is when the seller has to be elusive or hide the fact that the motor in the said vehicle is not original (and numbers matching) this is when there is a problem and the potential buyer must question the legitimacy of the seller.



As far as hudsons, I think this is a bonus, when the car has the correct numbers matching block. The club does not seem swayed by the numbers, and that is a good thing.



To illustrate the point further, the coupe you had for sale, had no motor, but I bet any hudson person that got it likely would have built a sreaming 308 for that thing, along with a compliment of twin H.. or maybe an edmunds head and intake.... hmmm.





2) the next faction is that of which no effort was made to maintain the originality of a vehicle, and the owner used a, say, a 350 chevy motor, and put it into a nice older hudson. These owners i guess get visions of grandeur, and see those wild and incredible customs that end up going across Barrett Jackson and the likes, and think that with the same mindset, they are gonna get $75-100 K for their "rod" WRONG... those guys building those cars are pros... the cars they build have twice+ what they ever realize, pricewise at auction. I would however, think that these cars are a safer bet though, than the person that decides one day to subframe their hudson, and improve it, by adding a front clip, and modern driveline. How many people out there have the expertise to even do this to a hudson? I guess the qualification is whether you can weld or not. I would feel safer with someone doing this all of the time building customs that has seen it done it, to know the individual nuances of sub framing a hudson.



We do have one board member though that seems to be going at it with some welding work that is similar ot that of Michaelangelo with a piece of marble, and that person, that shall remain nameless for this discussion, is maintaining enough originality to return to stock....



Otherwise I think the driver would have to keep second guessing the welds on that front clip. I would... unless the person that did the work was familiar enough with hudsons to do what I feel is competent work.



Also, I would think that there has to be some questions asked about the car if it is a buying scenario, as to why the person decided to swap out a motor. I guess the biggest reason is that it is viewed as too much work to get the other motor working, WRONG! I think that unless something is ultra rare, a replacement (read #1 above) is almost always available. Also, if it is too much work, what else on the car was "too much work" to properly do correct?



It just comes down to what is tolerable and what is not. There seems to be more concerns, IMHO with a car that no effort to mask the fact that it is not original, such as a 350 in the bay. than one where the seller has swapped a motor, with a similar era/manufacturer item and is fully disclosing the facts.



I guess the ones you got to question the legitimacy of are those that are hiding something...

Unknown

I didn't mean to start a major discussion, I merely want to know if and how to determine if my engine is original to my truck? Is it simple?



Thanks in advance.

Unknown

wwhale wrote:

I didn't mean to start a major discussion, I merely want to know if and how to determine if my engine is original to my truck? Is it simple?



Thanks in advance.

But the major discussions are the fun part of this whole thing! And sorry, I'm not the person that can help with your dilemma . . . bet Bill would know, though.



Russ :cool:

Unknown

Oops. I finally had a chance to compare my truck's serial number against the documentation on this site and have discovered that it's actually a 46. My work blocks my access to the MSN based info so I had to search it at home.

[Deleted User]

I am glad that matching numbers is not a major issue in the "Club" which for all intensive purposes is the Hudson community. I would surmise that atleast with the stepdowns (and with many other Hudsons), that all the six cylinder engines were so similar and so easily interchanged over the years, that it made it economically viable to swap engines with regularity. The brand x's are different as they have such a multitude of engine sizes and options and they can each have a different owner base. I have a 52 Coupe being worked on in Idaho and I believe it has the original engine in it. I have a very nice 53 Coupe project car that I had shipped to my home that I was planning to resell (not the e-bay car) but I think I may now just keep it (The gentleman that I bought the coupes from had called this a parts car. I thought to myself that it was much too nice, too complete and too desirable to be a parts car!). My eventual plan is to have a 7x spec engine built plus some period correct speed equip on it ie:headers, manifold, etc. My seven year old wants me to put a "Blown Hemi" in it... ain't kids great? A factory correct "looking" car (original pattern type interior, all Hudson engine and drivetrain) is important to me for my tastes and for what I believe, collectibility and desirability. However, I really do like 'em all... Niels

Unknown

nhp1127 wrote:

I am glad that matching numbers is not a major issue in the "Club" which for all intensive purposes is the Hudson community. I would surmise that atleast with the stepdowns (and with many other Hudsons), that all the six cylinder engines were so similar and so easily interchanged over the years, that it made it economically viable to swap engines with regularity. The brand x's are different as they have such a multitude of engine sizes and options and they can each have a different owner base. I have a 52 Coupe being worked on in Idaho and I believe it has the original engine in it. I have a very nice 53 Coupe project car that I had shipped to my home that I was planning to resell (not the e-bay car) but I think I may now just keep it (The gentleman that I bought the coupes from had called this a parts car. I thought to myself that it was much too nice, too complete and too desirable to be a parts car!). My eventual plan is to have a 7x spec engine built plus some period correct speed equip on it ie:headers, manifold, etc. My seven year old wants me to put a "Blown Hemi" in it... ain't kids great? A factory correct "looking" car (original pattern type interior, all Hudson engine and drivetrain) is important to me for my tastes and for what I believe, collectibility and desirability. However, I really do like 'em all... Niels

This is what it's all about... !

mars55

Well, In my opinion, the only time matching numbers would be important in a Hudson is if you are dealing with a orginal 7X equipped Hornet. Which I imagine would sell for quite a premium over a standard Hornet. But maybe 7X Hornets didn't have matching numbers because the 7X engine was dealer installed.

Unknown

Anyone can tout an engine as 7X, I would say unless you pull that head off, and see the work yourself, your only buying someone's word....



There is more to a 7X than a cam swap, and a split exhaust manifold.



I would approach a 7X "premium" purchase with caution, know your seller...

[Deleted User]

A factory 7X engine delivered to the dealer and installed by the dealer will have a engine number that includes a State designation. The California 7X dealer install's had CALxxxxxx This is how you can almost tell if you have a factory 7X. Hudson shipped them without engine numbers the dealers stamped the engine number following those factory guidelines. Hudson then sent a credit to the dealer for the replaced engine. Never run across one myself.