Barret-Jackson Auctions

Hudsonrules

:eek:When I am bored and wasting time, I will watch a Barret-Jackson Auction for a few minutes. Besides most of the cars are way overpriced, it appears that the same few people are buying the cars over and over. The faces of the buyers always look the same. Perhaps they buy a car, ship it to the next auction location, sell it, buy another one and repeat the game over. The bad thing is that some people watch these auctions and think their car is worth six digit figures. I had a guy awhile back try to sell me an early '65 Mustang coupe. He insisted it was rare, just a plain jane "6" cylinder coupe and it was in peices.! He wanted several thousand dollars for it, he still has it by the way. I told him that Ford built over two million Mustangs in '65-'66 and probably 2-3 percent still exixt. He is not good at math so his car is rare I guess. Sorry for rambling on. Have a great day and a safe and Happy New Year. Arnie in Nevada.

RL Chilton

I do the same. I've met several of those people and been to a few auctions. It is my contention that roughly 75% of the bidders are speculators. Many are both speculators and collectors. We see it all the time, even with Hudsons. Case in point, the recent '38 PU on E-Bay.

I think I'm the perfect hypocrite when it comes to the big auctions. It drives me crazy that the auctions are used as a gauge by the masses to determine value for old cars. So many cons, here. Least of which, the average guy can no longer afford even some run-of-the-mill type of cars. Then again, sometimes I think if I had the capital, I might very well be one of them. Many people make a LOT of money at this very endeavor.

Another case in point is Wayne Carini on the tube with the show, "Chasing Classic Cars". I usually TIVO (record) those episodes and watch them when I get the chance. It's a Love/Hate type of thing. He's one of the speculators driving up prices, but then again, there's some envy on my part, as I'm sure he's having a ball buying and selling.

oldhudsons

To begin with (my chance to "unload", LOL) I don't call them auctions, but circuses. I went to one of the big tented affairs in Scottsdale a few years ago at the behest of Al Saffrahn.

Upon arrival if you wanted to park close, let's say with 1/4 of a mile, you had to pay to park. Then you paid to get into the tent after which you walked by a huge # of vendors, many of which were peddling items which had no relevance to automobiles, then if you were going to bid you had to pay to get the "honor" of having a paddle. If you were one of the "exalted", you got to sit up close in the "VIP" seating area where you could see & be seen on TV (& with "trophy wife" if you had one).

A lot # of the cars were late model "muscle cars" for which I have no interest (usually cheap models of Chevvy, Fraud, Pontiwreck or whatever with a big engine). Most of the interesting, to me, cars were in other tents & they were worth seeing.

A lot of the attendees, as several of you have speculated above, are investors some of which have a very limited knowledge of old cars but have been conned into thinking they can make a lot of $ through this medium, most unfortunately for the hobby. Some have, others have "lost their shirt" (remember the big Ferrari "bubble" a few years ago)?

Since last venture, noted above, I've never gone to another & don't intend to (looks like Kruse is getting their deserved "just desserts").

Unknown

IMHO the Barrett Jackson crowd is an inner circle of about 50 members who find sport in buying and selling to and from each other. Kind of a king of the hill game.



The sad part is that what they are doing screws up the "perceived" value

of all collector and classic vehicles. Owners nationwide, and now thanks to the internet worldwide, think that their piece of crap Camaro, Cuda or Mustang and yes even Hudson, is now worth its weight in gold.



The good part is if you are selling your piece of crap you will probably get more than it's worth just due to the trickle down effect of having the same type of vehicle which just sold on BJ for $250,000. How many times have you heard a seller off of Craigslist or E-bay say "well they're getting over $200,000 for these at "Barrett Jackson".



I would be just as happy to see a "Barrett Jackson " parade and skip the auction because the the "Iron" that crosses the stage is usually spectacular.

oldhudsons

what if they gave an auction and no one came?

LOL

Aaron D. IL

I think they're hurting the hobby by artificially driving up prices in ways that do not reflect the real market for the cars. The side effect is that your average (and knowledgeable) car hobbyist may be priced out of some makes of car before he starts. A past president in the AACA in the 1970's said "I fear one day we may find ourselves outside of the hobby looking in." BJ is just a "look at me" event for the rich. Sure you can't fault the sellers for wanting to get as much money as they can. But in the bigger picture there won't be a classic car hobby in the future (as we know it today) because younger folks are not even going to be able to afford to get started in it in the first place. It'll just become something some rich old guys do.



The thing about wingnuts thinking their car is worth more than it is after watching BJ on TV drives me nuts too. Esp when they're selling junk that needs total restoration.

[Deleted User]

Your right. It's the same people buying these high priced cars. Although I like when they mention the specifics of some of the cars, [production numbers,special orders,etc.] That makes watching BJ somewhat interesting. If they just rolled them through and sold them I think it would be boring. If you ever watched R&M auctions. Thats what they do there. Just prices. YAWN

Unknown

The first and only car auction I ever went too, was a Kruse auction in the 70's in Janesville, Wisc. Most of the cars were cars that went from one auction to another auction then, same people buying then as now. I don't think any real money passes hands.

hudsontech

Hudsonrules wrote:

Besides most of the cars are way overpriced, it appears that the same few people are buying the cars over and over. The faces of the buyers always look the same. Perhaps they buy a car, ship it to the next auction location, sell it, buy another one and repeat the game over. Arnie in Nevada.

You are pretty much on the mark - these are speculators, really gamblers, betting that the $125,000 they paid for a $50,000 (real value) will bring them $140,000 at the next auction.



This most often happens in times of recession - goods increase in values because the few people with money don't dare bet on the stock market, so gamble on this venue. They'll buy most anything, gold coins, Elvis Presley records and so on, betting they can flog it at the next auction for more.



Case in point - Park Waldrops 1936 Hudson 8 conv - he sold it in what, the $60,000 range. Last time it sold it went for around $180,000 (I may be off in my figures, but not by much.)



Remember $4 and $5 gas prices?? Guess what, folks - those prices were driven by spectulators more than the oil comanies. Oh sure, the oil companies also made out like bandits, but the driving force were speculators.



Screaming at the food suppliers because of high food prices - again speculators driving up the price of corn, wheat, even cattle (ever hear of "cattle futures" - doesn't mean what that cow is going to do in the future.)



When the stock market went up so high I watched the news reports showing how the market went up, then dropped, then went up again - see-saw. Way I see it, again, speculators were buying low, driving the price up - then selling out when it got high enough to be profitable. When the bottom fell out of the housing market and the stock market dropped the way it did, I sure hope a bunch of fat cats got caught with their fingers in the door.



And speaking of the housing market - again, prices were driven up to artificial heights by banks looking to make a killing. Trouble was they were giving sub-prime loans with adjustable rate mortgages to people (usually first time buyers) that couldn't afford to buy a house in the first place. When I moved here to Memphis and started renting it didn't take long for several banks to start sending proposals that would allow me to buy this house - hell, I couldn't afford to replace the front door keys - but they offered me a lot of low interest, adjustable rate, deals. I think the way the bankers figured it they would foreclose, then resell the houses again. Well, they put their wangys on the chopping block and got cut off very close to the short hairs, didn't they, and we got a hell of a recession going out there. Most of that banking/housing fiasco can be attributed to lack of govm't control. But I won't get into who was to blame for that.



That's my rantings for today. Everybody have a great day, hear.



Hudsonly,

Alex Burr

Unknown

hudsontech wrote:

You are pretty much on the mark - these are speculators, really gamblers, betting that the $125,000 they paid for a $50,000 (real value) will bring them $140,000 at the next auction.



This most often happens in times of recession - goods increase in values because the few people with money don't dare bet on the stock market, so gamble on this venue. They'll buy most anything, gold coins, Elvis Presley records and so on, betting they can flog it at the next auction for more.



Case in point - Park Waldrops 1936 Hudson 8 conv - he sold it in what, the $60,000 range. Last time it sold it went for around $180,000 (I may be off in my figures, but not by much.)



Remember $4 and $5 gas prices?? Guess what, folks - those prices were driven by spectulators more than the oil comanies. Oh sure, the oil companies also made out like bandits, but the driving force were speculators.



Screaming at the food suppliers because of high food prices - again speculators driving up the price of corn, wheat, even cattle (ever hear of "cattle futures" - doesn't mean what that cow is going to do in the future.)



When the stock market went up so high I watched the news reports showing how the market went up, then dropped, then went up again - see-saw. Way I see it, again, speculators were buying low, driving the price up - then selling out when it got high enough to be profitable. When the bottom fell out of the housing market and the stock market dropped the way it did, I sure hope a bunch of fat cats got caught with their fingers in the door.



And speaking of the housing market - again, prices were driven up to artificial heights by banks looking to make a killing. Trouble was they were giving sub-prime loans with adjustable rate mortgages to people (usually first time buyers) that couldn't afford to buy a house in the first place. When I moved here to Memphis and started renting it didn't take long for several banks to start sending proposals that would allow me to buy this house - hell, I couldn't afford to replace the front door keys - but they offered me a lot of low interest, adjustable rate, deals. I think the way the bankers figured it they would foreclose, then resell the houses again. Well, they put their wangys on the chopping block and got cut off very close to the short hairs, didn't they, and we got a hell of a recession going out there. Most of that banking/housing fiasco can be attributed to lack of govm't control. But I won't get into who was to blame for that.



That's my rantings for today. Everybody have a great day, hear.



Hudsonly,

Alex Burr

Well said, !! Old guys rule!!

RL Chilton

Interesting to note, for those of you that care: (I state merely for observational purposes, mind you).

Last year ('08), the high end collector car market, including the big auction houses were typically down 5-7%, which was amazing because the economy on the whole was far worse off. This year ('09), that market is down 35-40%, a drastic, scandalous amount for the speculators.

Pete mentioned the ferrari bubble, which is absolutely factual, but even more so, on the whole, the car speculators are currently sweating buckets when they bought in '07 and are now trying to turn the profit they thought they so richly deserved.

I find it interesting to keep track, mostly for the laugh factor, but on a much smaller scale, it helps the majority of us in the masses to get a grip on what's happening in the real world.

[Deleted User]

Well for all the "negatives" presented here about the big tent auctions there are some positives that we shouldn't overlook...



Yes, often values are inflated on some vehicles, but someone mentioned market value, this is all part of the overall market, the trends, etc. regardless if we agree with the selling prices. You could call it a niche market, high rollers whatever, but it is still part of the hobby. Most of us earthlings know that there will always be highs and lows and everything in between. What's valuable to one person is not necessarily valuable to others - or the marketplace. I don't think any of us would balk at the idea of someone paying us an exorbitant amount of money for one of our beloved vehicles...



These shows do generate interest in the hobby, expose these vehicles to a wide audience and sometimes the commentators even make an educated point or two about the cars. Keeps people thinking about the hobby, checking and researching facts and sharing the lore of a uniquely American hobby (albeit growing worldwide interest). And if the vendors show up who cares? Where else can you look at, touch and ask questions about some of the very products you might be interested in? Don't hear any complaints from someone who's visited SEMA or attended any national car events. This is all good stuff in my opinion.



Now as far a actual vehicles presented on say BJ... well some are really great and other are just ho hum... the bottom-line is that there is something for everyone. Yes the Shelbys and the Cudas (to name a few) are going for big bucks, but there have been some nicely done vehicles go for some decent prices... I mean c'mon we all know that you can build one cheaper than you can buy one... right? I think not. Quite a few cars went across the block that were real bargains, clean, restored, resto-rodded, etc in the mid 20s not bad by any stretch. As they say on BJ "Nicely purchased." Again, it's all in the eyes of the beholder...



Of course hindsight is 20 20... if we all had kept the cars we had 20 or 30 years ago (or longer) we would all be making money. Remember back during the real fuel crisis (70's) you could have picked up muscle cars super cheap... people couldn't give away some of those hemi and big block cars! Most of us weren't interested in buying a used factory strip ready car (radio, heater delete, posts, etc.), one off option combos, or any other unique factors that makes something collectible today, with the hopes that it might be valuable someday. Not too many of us were "smart" enough to do this...



That's enough ranting for me today...



Just remember, "buy em, build em, show em and drive em... keep the hobby alive, keep the government out of the picture and share this part of our history with the next generation!



Happy New Year!



Craig

[Deleted User]

Whenever I watch the same cars being bought and sold by the same people every year, the first thing that comes to mind is that they are simply using the old car market to launder dirty money. Buy a car for 10 times the amount it's worth in cash, get a title and sell it for an equally high amount. As far as everybody is concerned when you resell it the money becomes legit and it's a cheap way to get cash into the mainstream market. Just my two cents worth.

[Deleted User]

Because of the gas crunch in the early 70's, my Dad wouldn't let me get a show room mint condition 70 Boss 302 for $2,400 bucks as my first car! Funny thing is he ended up giving $900 bucks later and I ended up buying a 1966 Sunbeam Tiger for $1,400. He thought it was a four cylinder..... ha! I took out the stock 289 V8 and put in a full race built 302 in it. I could get the front wheels off the ground... I was the bomb in High School!

hudsn47

I thought it was incredible when Wayne Carrini was selling the Muntz Jet at Auction and the auctioneer bid it up himself to the reserve and Wayne thought he had it sold. I cant believe they put that on the air. Did anyone else see that?

RL Chilton

hudsn47 wrote:

I thought it was incredible when Wayne Carrini was selling the Muntz Jet at Auction and the auctioneer bid it up himself to the reserve and Wayne thought he had it sold. I cant believe they put that on the air. Did anyone else see that?

That happens with most cars on the block, especially when there aren't many bidders, frenzy is low, etc. Nice thing about that auction, is they still entertain reserves. BJ has done away with them, which is ridiculous.

Browniepetersen

The State of Utah is holding an Auction next week. There was some dip-wad that took a lot of people for a lot of money and they caught him and put him in Jail. Now, the State finds that he has invested close to 6 million in cars. All kinds of them. Most are called collector cars. The State is paying a thousand a month to store these cars so the Judge said: "Sell them!!!" No reserve, all must go..... I'll drop back week and tell you what I thought of this Auction...... When they sold off the Browning (Browning Arms) collection some ten years ago there were some real deals---Let's see what happens here?

Browniepetersen

The Auction second day is mainly for motorcycles. And like you said, he had very little taste in what he would buy. There are said to be 250 cars but the photo's only show about 40. It will be intresting to see what is there, and what they will go for... I also wonder if someone will be there to "bid the price up" on the cars that are low buck project cars......??

Unknown

HotrodHR wrote:

Well for all the "negatives" presented here about the big tent auctions there are some positives that we shouldn't overlook...



Yes, often values are inflated on some vehicles, but someone mentioned market value, this is all part of the overall market, the trends, etc. regardless if we agree with the selling prices. You could call it a niche market, high rollers whatever, but it is still part of the hobby. Most of us earthlings know that there will always be highs and lows and everything in between. What's valuable to one person is not necessarily valuable to others - or the marketplace. I don't think any of us would balk at the idea of someone paying us an exorbitant amount of money for one of our beloved vehicles...



These shows do generate interest in the hobby, expose these vehicles to a wide audience and sometimes the commentators even make an educated point or two about the cars. Keeps people thinking about the hobby, checking and researching facts and sharing the lore of a uniquely American hobby (albeit growing worldwide interest). And if the vendors show up who cares? Where else can you look at, touch and ask questions about some of the very products you might be interested in? Don't hear any complaints from someone who's visited SEMA or attended any national car events. This is all good stuff in my opinion.



Now as far a actual vehicles presented on say BJ... well some are really great and other are just ho hum... the bottom-line is that there is something for everyone. Yes the Shelbys and the Cudas (to name a few) are going for big bucks, but there have been some nicely done vehicles go for some decent prices... I mean c'mon we all know that you can build one cheaper than you can buy one... right? I think not. Quite a few cars went across the block that were real bargains, clean, restored, resto-rodded, etc in the mid 20s not bad by any stretch. As they say on BJ "Nicely purchased." Again, it's all in the eyes of the beholder...



Of course hindsight is 20 20... if we all had kept the cars we had 20 or 30 years ago (or longer) we would all be making money. Remember back during the real fuel crisis (70's) you could have picked up muscle cars super cheap... people couldn't give away some of those hemi and big block cars! Most of us weren't interested in buying a used factory strip ready car (radio, heater delete, posts, etc.), one off option combos, or any other unique factors that makes something collectible today, with the hopes that it might be valuable someday. Not too many of us were "smart" enough to do this...



That's enough ranting for me today...



Just remember, "buy em, build em, show em and drive em... keep the hobby alive, keep the government out of the picture and share this part of our history with the next generation!



Happy New Year!



Craig

I agree with every word Craig, I've seen plenty of Streetrods sell at prices you couldn't even think of building them for.

As for the over priced others, hey why complain it just keeps folks interested in something other than realestate

oldhudsons

An interesting adjunct to this "thread" came in OCW today, article titled "Buyer cries foul in Duesenberg sale". Those being sued inc. the ACD Museum (where we had our National in '07), wheeler/dealer Mark Hyman, Kruse (of course), & a Mich. resident.

To make a long story short they are being sued for colluding in driving up the price, bidding in an illegal manner under Ind. law, some of the usual stuff during the bidding whereas the man suing was bidding by phone.

He won the bid for a paltry $3.1 MILLION, promptly paid the $ to the Museum (oh, & he STILL hasn't got the car!).

"In his civil lawsuit alleging violation of Ind. law, fraud, criminal conversion and negligence, - - -"

What if they gave an auction & no one came????????????

SamJ

HotrodHR wrote:

r



Of course hindsight is 20 20... if we all had kept the cars we had 20 or 30 years ago (or longer) we would all be making money. Remember back during the real fuel crisis (70's) you could have picked up muscle cars super cheap... people couldn't give away some of those hemi and big block cars! Most of us weren't interested in buying a used factory strip ready car (radio, heater delete, posts, etc.), one off option combos, or any other unique factors that makes something collectible today, with the hopes that it might be valuable someday. Not too many of us were "smart" enough to do this...

[Craig

And at the end of WW II there were coachbuilt Packards, Caddys and even Deusenbergs on used car lots in Southern California and nobody wanted them at $5-900. Forty years from now somebody will be saying "If only I'd bought such and such in 2010 when I had the chance..." But what? You can get a nice 10-12 year-old Corvette for $9-10,000 if you keep your eyes open. A really nice Porche 911 in the low teens. '75 Caddy ragtops are a glut on the market because so many guys thought they would appreciate. The "retro" T-Bird and the "retro" Chev pickup (can't think of the name) didn't sell much when new, but may appreciate. Hoo Nose?

RonS

Many, if not most of the bidders at the big auctions, are not the restorers and sentimental "fools" that make up antique auto clubs, such as HET, AACA Corsa. These buyers to the most extent are commodity traders, that buy cars from spec sellers. One of you stated that there are all no reserve cars at BJ.Why? because you most transfer your title to BJ before the auction. That means if the auctioneer is a little "off" with his enthusiasim, you better have a few shills in the gallery or on the phone so you don't give up your $60,000 hornet conv for 28,000. MHO, you must be either desparate,or a gambler to risk this. A true restorer would not chance this. I would think that a club member would offer a car for sale in mags such as WTN, Hemmings or even Ebay first. Kruse is on the carpet for playing a futures market. When sales were awful at an auction and not enough sales crossed the block, they held back cash overs from sellers until the next city auction and then paid sellers from the last auction. Well I guess there are folks who think they can make money in Vegas too. I don't have a budget to buy new vehicles for museums or the tax benefit as well. I keep my cars, and the friends I have met because of them. That is what the HOBBY is about.

oldhudsons

Kruse has been doing that "forever". At least 20 years ago one of my old college pals bought an unrestored Marmon V-16 cp. at one of the "surplus car" auctions Harrah had. After restoring it he consigned it to Kruse who auctioned it off for him - had to hire an Ind. lawyer to sue Kruse to get the $ ergo Kruse had his $ to "wheel & deal" with for at least 6 months before finally paying up.