Aluminum Head on Ebay
Comments
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Yes it will its a 1951 head for a 308.0
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lockport123 wrote:
Be smart and stay away from any aluminum head. If you still want one, it must be 2 inches thick, 4 corners and middle 2 center holes. 0.060 is maximum you can have it milled, so 1.940 is minimum. This style head was trouble from day one on 308 engines. Walt.Saw this on Ebay, just wondering if it will fit my 52 Hornet 308 Twin H??
Thx Don in Canada0 -
OK, thx guys, Don0
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FYI
Before bidding ensure its 2" thick like Walt said is very important to leave room to reface a few thou. I like aluminum heads for weight savings mainly and appearance. Suggest nstall them with the new Permbond Gasket by BEST to ensure sealing. I have installed 7/16" Dorman Studs at times too using Lube under the washer & nuts to improved torque.0 -
This head the 51 H-145 was Marshall Teagues favourite head to use. With the Best gasket from Randy Maas you will have few problems with this head. I have put them on two cars both over 50K of trouble free driving. Like anything else you need to know what you are doing to make things work. Asking questions here is the best thing before going out and buying one. Any head you buy should be magnafluxed and thickness checked.0
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A lot of these heads are badly corroded in the water passages and this makes them unusable. So in addition to what has been said above about thickness, be sure it isn't badly corroded. Also, is it flat? They warp, which also renders them unusable. I have just spent 6 months looking for a good narrow block ('48 - '50) aluminum head. I have looked at about 6 of them - all junk! There seem to be a lot more available for the wide-block '51 up engine. Good luck.0
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Best thing to do with a used aluminium head is to polish it and hang it on your garage wall as a conversation piece.
Even a NOS alloy head is way behind the stiffness of a steel head. The modulus of elasticity of aluminium at 200°F is around 9 million psi, for steel its 29 million psi. That means that for any given force, the aluminium head is 3 times more flexible than the steel head.
You may be get a good run out of alloy heads as 51HornetA has done, but the odds are that you won't.
There was a very good reason why Jack Clifford made his alloy heads 3" thick, and that was to compensate for the low modulus of elasticity of aluminium. In fact they were/are probably stiffer than a steel head.0 -
Bob, very good point!0
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You're kidding right. "modulus of elasticity" if you want to discuss arcane terminology the only relevant one when discussing aluminum heads is the coefficient of thermal expansion. I have worked on a lot of cars with aluminum heads from Packards, flat top Fords, Buicks to Oldsmobiles. Properly installed with a good gasket and they are fine. I have two of these H-145 heads in my shop right now, got them with a load of parts. Both are fine and within spec. Would not hesitate to use them.0
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Hey 51HornetA,
I'm sorry you have a problem with Mr. Ward's terminology, but it seems a bit petty on your part. I think those of us with experience can agree that there is a greater possibility of warpage with the aluminum heads than the steel ones. When you factor in the small amount of milling that these heads can tolerate, an Ebay purchase of an aluminum head is taking a pretty big chance at best.
I think the point was to help a brother Hudsonite not make a mistake in buying a part like this without having it checked for flatness and measured for thickness. I don't think anyone was trying to say that all Hudson aluminum heads are crap or anything like that.
Most of us are here to help each other. I don't know it all, nobody does. But I've been able to benefit greatly from the knowledge and experience of many on this forum, and I hoped I've helped others as well with what I know.
Please check your attitude at the door.
Tom0 -
If Bob has any problems with what I am saying I will listen to what he has to say I do not need anyone else to tell me what someone was saying or meaning.
We have two differing opinions that I think we can work out without anyones help. I think it was pretty much clearly stated the pitfalls of buying an aluminum head.
One thing I will say is I tire of those who think they need to add their 2cents to every conversation. Great job I think you have moved the discussion forward.0 -
I've just reread my original post and I think I was fairly even handed. The point I was making was that design for design an aluminium head is inherently weaker than a steel head.
Can an alloy head be made to work? Obviously yes. Are they potentially more troublesome than a steel head? Obviously yes. Do they look cool? Definitely.
And FWIW taking 60 thou off a 2" thick head reduces its stiffness by 10% not 3%.
51hornetA wrote:"modulus of elasticity" if you want to discuss arcane terminology.....
Granted modulus of elasticity is a term most people don't much think of after high school physics, but I can assure you it is very important and very much alive and well out there.
For every bridge you cross, for every elevator you step into, for every part of every car you drive, modulus of elasticity was used in calculations back in the design stages.0 -
I am with you on that one Bob. But you have to admit you do not hear that very often in conversations around the tool bench.
Even expansion quote is not used much. I think its safe to say we agree you install it right it probably going to be ok. Not as bullet proof as cast head but will get the job done and may work a little better with ping.
Wow Bob seems you and I can discuss this ourselves. Good post good info.0 -
lockport123 wrote: »Saw this on Ebay, just wondering if it will fit my 52 Hornet 308 Twin H??
If your engine is to be rebuilt anytime soon or is even out of the car, have the head bolt holes drilled and retapped for 1/2 studs and go with a good '55-56 aluminum head.0 -
FYI
I found for street use, just replacing the 21 head bolts with 7/16" Studs and a hardened USS Washer using 7/16" Wheel Nuts, (having more thread), greatly improves sealing any Hudson head, because of much better Torque values then bolts that normally stretch when tightened.
If this helps a fellow Hudson enthusiasts Bolt to studs can be done one at a time in the car..
Stud Dorman # DOR 675 013 $1.95
Wheel Nut Dorman # DOR 611 014 $.83
Large OD Washer use Grade 80 -
guys if you want to go with high strength studs for the engines with 1/2" threads use the Big Block Chevy (366-454) ARP main cap studs along with hardened washers and 1" socket stock car lug nuts (larger surface diameter) for extra holding power.
These are the right stretch length for the stock Hudson heads both cast iron and aluminum. The stock car lug nuts are much larger is area and offer better holding force over this larger area.
For the thicker Clifford aluminum cylinder head I used the Big Block Ford (370-429-460) ARP main cap studs as they are the correct stretch length on my PaceMaker with the supercharger. No leaks period in the head gasket after 2 years of hard running and I didn't use the Best Gasket. If I had known about it at that time I would have just for some more added insurance!
I would defiantly recommend drilling and tapping all of the 7/16" blocks to the 1/2" for head retention just for the added insurance.
thanks,
PaceRacer500 -
Great info!0
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I will toss my 2 cents worth about aluminum heads - whatever you do, if you go with aluminum, be absolutely sure you have the correct head gasket.
Back in the early 1970's, while in the Coast Guard, I worked with a chief engineman, from down Maine somewhere, who'd been around the block a few times. He had a local fellow with a 1938, 1939 that era Lincoln with a V-12 engine and aluminum heads. The fellow asked Gilman if he'd overhaul the engine for him. Gil removed the head bolts (nuts on studs or bolts I don't remember) and discovered that the heads weren't going to come off in the manner they should have come off. Now granted those heads had probably never been off the car but they were locked securely in place. He even tried putting the bolts back in, then after backing them off a few turns started the engine. NADA. I dis-remember now how he finally got the heads off, but they had to be replaced - and were with cast iron heads.
It's called electrolysis - the metal in the head gaskets, around the bolt holes, interacted with the aluminum and, in effect, thoroughly welded the heads in place. I know there is a different head gasket for aluminum heads - I just can't remember if it's a gasket with copper around the bolt/stud holes or steel - I'd almost say it should be copper, but I could be wrong.
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN0 -
Get your gasket from Randy Maas he will get you the right gasket.0
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Hey 51 HornetA,
Quotes from your response:
"If Bob has any problems with what I am saying I will listen to what he has to say I do not need anyone else to tell me what someone was saying or meaning."
It is apparent to me that you DO need someone to tell you when you are behaving badly.
"We have two differing opinions that I think we can work out without anyones help. I think it was pretty much clearly stated the pitfalls of buying an aluminum head."
Of course we all have different opinions. What I was objecting to was the fact that you were deriding Bob in the course of expressing your opinion.
"One thing I will say is I tire of those who think they need to add their 2cents to every conversation. Great job I think you have moved the discussion forward."
Well, I have 96 posts in 5 years on this forum, and I've managed to avoid being ill-tempered or sarcastic on all 96 of them. You, on the other hand, have 1,906 posts in 5 1/2 years on the forum.
Which one of us do you think feels the need to offer their .02 cents more often?
Tom0 -
Again, you are posting nothing that adds to the conversation. And by 2cents I mean posting no content. Not just a post. Like yours above.
Yes thats what I call 2 cents. Read it through twice can see nothing about aluminum heads.
Did not know you were moderating the board or think you need to speak up for people. Bob and I seemed to have gotten on pretty well I think. Cannot see how anything you have said in both posts added anything of value.
But please continue the lecture. If you can add some info about the pro's and cons of aluminum heads.0 -
These posts are worth saving to help solve the ever present head gasket leaking problem. Another problem with the early failure of aluminum heads, was the wrong anti- freeze, worn out anti -freeze, or no anti -freeze at all, which hastened electrolysis.Also the head bolts needed to torqed to specs more often.With the new better head gaskets available now, correct anti-freeze, better bolts , nuts and studs, and correct torque, you will see many more trouble free miles. Also your horsepower will be increased.0
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When pulling down Hudson engines I have seen three types of gaskets used:
Pressed Steel
Copper
Copper/asbestos
Because of the thermal expansion rate of Aluminum is greater than cast iron this puts more stress on the gasket.
Common gasket problems are a blow out of the gasket you will see a void in the gasket usually between cylinders.
I recently pulled a 308 down that had an aluminum head and a copper gasket. The gasket had been painted. I think the engine hadn't been touched since the 60's the previous mechanic had painted the gasket. Seemed to have worked as the head came off pretty easy and the gasket was in good shape and none of the white powdery corrosion you sometimes see when pulling heads.
And yes the type of coolant used can be a problem you can sure see it if the previous owner was using straight water especially on an Aluminum head you will find lots of corrosion pits in the water way. These heads should be avoided.
One nice thing about Aluminum heads is they dissipate heat quicker so you can run a higher compression without as much ping as a cast iron head. With the amount of driving we do on these old cars it comes down to a matter of choice. I know some owners like the look, some polish them and they look great. Others will swear by iron heads and its all fine.
Thanks to the new head gaskets you can use Aluminum heads without much problem. I have old head gaskets hanging on my wall so if anyone wants to see the three older types and what a new gasket looks like I can post pics of them if there is interest.0 -
I have a '54 Hornet with a factory Aluminum head, that has been on for at least 2 decades. Runs great, no problems...(knock on wood) I have been running distilled water with a water pump lube added. Should I continue this mixture, or would I be better served by switching to a 50/50 antifreeze? If so, what brand? Thanks!0
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FYI
I suggest using any name Brand 50/50 Antifreeze going forward. I understand that most erosion problems with aluminum heads resulted from using Alcohol for antifreeze in the winter then plain water in the summers because of lack of quality permanent antifreeze back in the Day.0 -
Since were discussing Hudson heads, maybe someone knows what year and engine these aluminum heads I have fit. (1) 308 with numbers cast: 5325011
Cast on head: per mold P2
(2) 300006 D
Alcoa E113 JNA
(3) 300006 A
Alcoa BRC
This one's a 8 (4) POWER DOME
165605
Alcoa D1
D2 29
Hudsonly,
Thanks in advance0 -
51hornetA wrote:When pulling down Hudson engines I have seen three types of gaskets used:
Pressed Steel
Copper
Copper/asbestos
Because of the thermal expansion rate of Aluminum is greater than cast iron this puts more stress on the gasket.
Common gasket problems are a blow out of the gasket you will see a void in the gasket usually between cylinders.
I recently pulled a 308 down that had an aluminum head and a copper gasket. The gasket had been painted. I think the engine hadn't been touched since the 60's the previous mechanic had painted the gasket. Seemed to have worked as the head came off pretty easy and the gasket was in good shape and none of the white powdery corrosion you sometimes see when pulling heads.
And yes the type of coolant used can be a problem you can sure see it if the previous owner was using straight water especially on an Aluminum head you will find lots of corrosion pits in the water way. These heads should be avoided.
One nice thing about Aluminum heads is they dissipate heat quicker so you can run a higher compression without as much ping as a cast iron head. With the amount of driving we do on these old cars it comes down to a matter of choice. I know some owners like the look, some polish them and they look great. Others will swear by iron heads and its all fine.
Thanks to the new head gaskets you can use Aluminum heads without much problem. I have old head gaskets hanging on my wall so if anyone wants to see the three older types and what a new gasket looks like I can post pics of them if there is interest.
Yeah, post the pics, if you get a chance. I think that would be useful.0
This discussion has been closed.
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