New Hudson High performance Aluminum Head now available
Comments
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I sure would like to see how you setup your flow bench to test this head. Flow testing on a flat head is complicated by having to know exactly what relief you have in the block to accurately calculate the final compression ratio vs engine breathing which is the voodoo in the building of performance flat heads.
Agree with above posts dyno that puppy. Same engine using the OEM Aluminum and cast heads for reference.0 -
51hornetA wrote:I sure would like to see how you setup your flow bench to test this head. Flow testing on a flat head is complicated by having to know exactly what relief you have in the block to accurately calculate the final compression ratio vs engine breathing which is the voodoo in the building of performance flat heads.
Agree with above posts dyno that puppy. Same engine using the OEM Aluminum and cast heads for reference.
We testflowed the 232-262-308 head chambers as did others in the past.
We used a sheet of Plexaglass clamped to the chamber being tested and drilled a hole 5/16 and injected a stream of water into this hole to see how it would flow and compaired it to our Modified chamber. (the hole is about where the valves would be) The water would slide across the wennie or the lowered part of the head where the ramp starts going up to the cyl headmilled area. ( when a high millage head is removed a lots of carbon in found at this part of the head and sometimes more than other parts of the chamber) The sharp areas around the Fire-Ring of the gasket would cause the water flow to really go a bit crazy.
With our Modified chamber the water would flow around both sides of the chamber evenly and head for the piston area.
This is Not a test of head to block flow ,this flow test was used by Smokey Yunick in his early days of engine building to only test the flow of the differant head chambers.
Is this the Best test of a Flat Head ? It is what WE used.
Hudsonly Rudy and Chuck0 -
Yes this is the same method used by Hudson to test their heads.
You have half of the picture with this testing. I still have my Dad's flow testing rig. We tested too many heads to remember on this setup. In the early days we slapped them on a engine we had in a test car and drove the crap out it to test. Later Dad got a dyno and we tested on that. Better testing less surprises. My Dad had a engine shop.
This has been my experience you can get a head setup on the flow bench and think its the cats meow then get it on an engine and have it give numbers less than the stock head. I remember when my Dad had me doing heads for a flat head ford we were building for me. He said you grind your own heads well I was young and screwed up the transfer area left a bump in it I missed it entirely. Of course we were grinding stock heads by hand so you expect some differences. I had boloxed the grind basically. It flow tested like a dream thought I had cracked the atom on a new head grind. Ran like complete crap on the car. When my Dad checked them he was laughing his ass off. What can I say. Experience takes time. Like he said you have to screw it up to get it right the next time.
Not saying that your stuff is anything like this in any way shape or form. Only saying flow testing is half the picture on a flat head. But you guys know that. Be interested to see this head on a car screaming down the road. Kudos to you guys for building new Hudson speed equipment.0 -
Thanks 51Hornet,for your thanks to us.It is a longer road than we expected on this project and we did not realize the work that it is taken to get this far like,driving to the plant 3-4 times a week to help some in the process.The old-timers that make the patterns do it by Hand like carving and grinding of the whole head,not just the outside but the inside like,the water jacket passages it truly is a lost art,that is done by hand.
And it is good to hear that you did the same testing as we have done and,that the Dyno is a great tool But, the Road and Tracks is the real test as you were saying. We have tested engines on the dyno and logged some very impressive Torques and HP. and then see them blown away in the real world. (not a hudson engine)
We will keep plugging away at it till we get it right that is if Artha of the Ritis brothers will let up a bit so we can complete it.
Thanks to you and all of our Hudson family Rudy and Chuck0 -
Well, I bit the bullet and placed my money where my mouth is! Sent the check in today.
Anyone in Florida or Georgia want to volunteer their car to be the test mule? Maybe a group of us can get together for a test session
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Kdancy wrote:Well, I bit the bullet and placed my money where my mouth is! Sent the check in today.
Anyone in Florida or Georgia want to volunteer their car to be the test mule? Maybe a group of us can get together for a test session
Keep us posted on your test. Should be interesting. Sorry being in Calif. it's a bit far to volunteer a test car. I would be interested in the test results.
Will you tell us what this new head cost?
Good luck. Lee O'Dell0 -
super651 wrote:Ken U-Tx wrote:Hmmm , this Empire Motors is the offshoot of the old MFT Manufacuring. They had numerous fraud complaints against them. Are they asking for deposits up front before they will cast a lot of those heads? Is that Valor Blazer guy still running it from behind the scenes, or using an alias??? Kenneth
Ken has a legitimate concern. I had some contact with Valor Blazer of Empire Motors some time ago, with regards to casting heads for our early Super Sixes and was not impressed. I also had some feed back from members of the Horseless Carriage club with a bad experience with them. Lost parts, lost money, law suits etc. So, it does my heart good to hear there are in business and coming through with what they have promised.
Please keep us informed on the results of your project. I may revisit my early Super Six head project.
Gene Birdsall.
Kenneth, Rudy and Chuck
Yes Mr Blazer is and hourly employee of EMPIRE MOTORS works with quality control and hands on all the many projects.
Chuck and Me were going to have a Head built just for us because we could not find a head to meet our demands then, we had a guilty feeling about being selfish that is when we called some of our good x-racing buddys and said,lets do it for all, ok thats how it all got started.
We have spent lots of our money lots of our time going to the plant two times a week some times more to help in this project and Most of ALL we enjoy doing it,we want to Help our many Hudson friends in Hudson land get a Cyl.Head that we think is the best Designed to be made at this time.
He is taking orders as of last week when Ken posted it for us and the payment is pay as it is built.
They have many cyl heads,intake manifolds,ex.manifolds and some cyl blocks for many cars such as Lincoln v-12 Packard v12 Lycoming and lost more that were ordered and never paid for and that is one reason they filed for Bankruptcy many years back.
We hope that this helps in some way as they want there name cleared and the Hudson people is a good starting group .
We are happy that someone is taking the time and our money to make us Hudson owners a quality part that not only looks very nice but,will outperform any thing out on the market.
Hudsonly to ALL Rudy and Chuck
Please call them for the del. date,as some have placed the orders in the past 2 days. Thanks for reading and May youall have a Blessed day0 -
Sorry but I am confused on this tread.....
1. Is there or is there not going to be dyno results on this head? If not, why? I wouldn't buy a head simply based on someones driving impressions.Show me the stats!
2. What is the cost of the head?
3. When will it be realistically available?
4. Pic's of the head.0 -
Kdancy wrote:Well, I bit the bullet and placed my money where my mouth is! Sent the check in today.
Anyone in Florida or Georgia want to volunteer their car to be the test mule? Maybe a group of us can get together for a test session
Kdancy, what would be required of me if I volunteered one of my cars for your test mule. I'm just outside of Atlanta. Where would I have to drive it? Richie0 -
Congrats!!! Awesome craftsmanship!0
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Richie wrote:Kdancy wrote:Well, I bit the bullet and placed my money where my mouth is! Sent the check in today.
Anyone in Florida or Georgia want to volunteer their car to be the test mule? Maybe a group of us can get together for a test session
Kdancy, what would be required of me if I volunteered one of my cars for your test mule. I'm just outside of Atlanta. Where would I have to drive it? Richie
Richie, I pm'ed you, check your messages.0 -
nhp1127 wrote:Sorry but I am confused on this tread.....
1. Is there or is there not going to be dyno results on this head? If not, why? I wouldn't buy a head simply based on someones driving impressions.Show me the stats!
I'm not in the market for one of these heads, but you have to wonder if there is a bit of BS floating about. Making an aluminium Hudson head as a replacement part is one thing, and congratulations for providing the money and b*lls to make it happen.
But hyping the head as a high performance head on the basis of very crude and basically irrelevant flow tests is not a good look.0 -
I would be glad to dyno my race motor first with a clifford head. Would need to make a few pulls to tune for max hp and torque. I can then change the head to the Bennett-Fellows head and tune for final comparison. Of course this is going to be expensive. Will cost $350 per day for me to dyno for as many pulls as I need. Will need to change heads which takes time so I will probably need to pull a second day with the B-F head. This should take care of the speculation for all the folks that critisise the way the head is built, flow tested, ect. Maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong. We will know. With all the interest start sending me your $20.00 donations to help offset expenses. Will be done this winter. I'll be glad to post all names that help with with this project.
Randy Maas
P.O. Box 589
Manito, Illinois
615460 -
Well, this has been an extremely interesting thread. I too, am looking forward to hearing more about the progress on the project, and to seeing a "finished" head. Re-reading this thread, on August 5th, it was posted that heads would be available in 90 days, which translates to Nov. 5th. That means, if this is still true, that someone should be getting a new head in a couple of weeks. Would like to see some pics posted of the finished head.
Kdancy-
Bravo for you! Admire your faith.
Randy-
That's an extremely generous offer. I would think that a better test for the average bear would be, rather than using a racing motor for dyno testing, it seems it would be more prudent to use a stock 308 with a cast iron head for one test, and the New Head for a second test. An interesting addition would be to lastly compare to the Clifford head. Regardless, if it comes down to you doing the dyno work, put me down for a donation. I certainly don't mind stepping up to the benefit of all of us.
I am in agreement with others in that dyno testing is a must, if you want to sell any of these heads. From the above pricing on dyno testing, it seems that the cost of one head, possibly two would pay for the tests. So, why wouldn't you do the dyno tests? From a business standpoint, if you were planning on selling 6 heads, then no, of course you wouldn't consider it. But if you planned on selling 20 or more heads, I would think the matter a no-brainer.
If the cost is remaining to be $900, as posted on page 1 of this thread, I would venture to guess (especially in this economy), that most folks are in the "wait and see" status on considering a purchase for these heads. Photos of finished products, dyno stats and a complete set of specs would go a long way in the marketing department.
Lastly, it was posted earlier that the spark plug location was going to be positioned over the cylinder, rather than over the exhaust valve as on an OEM head. From the picture of the rough casting, this does not appear to be correct to my eyes . . . am I missing something there?
Anyway, don't mean to be pessimistic, if it came out that way. Congratulations on the effort to bring the Hudson folks another alternative in the performance department.0 -
Hi Randy, I dont have 1 of these motors but anyone thats would go out on a limb
to produce a head like this I would also donate $20-00 towards the project
I know how expensive it is to setup projects like this from the work I have done casting different parts for my coupe
and you guys have gone a lot further indeed
A lot of kudos to you guys
send me your email address and I will PayPal the money through to you
Mike0 -
Randy, just got in and read your post. Do you have a pay pal account to take donations to help with testing? I'll be glad to help out.maasfh wrote:I would be glad to dyno my race motor first with a clifford head. Would need to make a few pulls to tune for max hp and torque. I can then change the head to the Bennett-Fellows head and tune for final comparison. Of course this is going to be expensive. Will cost $350 per day for me to dyno for as many pulls as I need. Will need to change heads which takes time so I will probably need to pull a second day with the B-F head. This should take care of the speculation for all the folks that critisise the way the head is built, flow tested, ect. Maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong. We will know. With all the interest start sending me your $20.00 donations to help offset expenses. Will be done this winter. I'll be glad to post all names that help with with this project.
Randy Maas
P.O. Box 589
Manito, Illinois
61546
I know you can't please everyone with how the dyno test is done and on what engine it is done on, but a hi po motor like yours will tell us a lot about how good this head really is. Of course a road test would go further in the "how it performs in the cooling" department. Both dyno and road testing will give us the answers we seek !0 -
Randy,
I've been following this with interest and I want to jump in and say I will pay the $350 for the day of testing the new head against the existing Clifford head on your race motor. I am sure that you, like me, do a significant amount of machining to the Clifford head to make the chambers equal in volume (as they certainly are not when they were shipped from Clifford's) and to tailor them to your block relief and cam lift. Hopefully, the new head will have more consistent combustion chambers and I trust your careful analysis of whether it will work with 7X size valves without machining for easy street rod bolt on use. As you can guess, I am interested in it for competition use and you are the man whose efforts I believe in. So, I will pay 1/3 the cost of a head to know whether, in your view, this represents a good alternative for competition, what work it needs to do that job, and, hopefully, the Hudson community can learn if it will work for them as a "bolt-on" speed part.
Hudsonly,
Ivan Zaremba0 -
This receiver also rise on the 262? or are the tests? Bravo for research work
I want to participate also has this work by a donation, how to do this? have you address pay pal?0 -
Bob,No BS here about the Cyl Head I never had to do it and at 72 yesra I dont need to start now. We just wanted to Build a Hudson after market Head that would surpass any built so far and, I have tried a lot of them and never was pleased with the out come.
So with the help of our Very Good and Deicated Hudson friends of many years we hope that The Testing will prove to us and many others that it will be the Best as of yet. HUDSONLY to ALL Rudy and Chuck:)0 -
Thanks to all that have offered to help pay some of the expenses on the Bennett-Fellows head project. I am using my race motor for this project to tune the cam timing, ignition timing, and fuel curve. I feel there is more to gain and the dyno is the tool and I am very interest in the new chamber design. I have taken the SWAG method to the limits. Thanks to Clifford, he has given us a head to work with. Out of the box the head is somewhat crude with the chambers varying in CC"s. The casting is very porus and has pinholes that leak water. All of that can be corrected. It is very thick and you can mill, mill, & mill to get the desired CC"s you want. The end result is that he gave us head to work with to suit our needs. My idea of using my race motor is to duplicate the B-F's head to the cc's of my clifford head. To dyno a stock motor with a hudson head which the 308 head is over 100 cc's and then putting on the B-F's head which I am told will be around 80 cc's would not be a comparision. Speculation out there is that I am going to sell or distribute these heads. I have not been asked to. Randy0
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Randy,
You can count on me to send in a donation to help defray the rental of the Dyno Facility for 'Test pulls' since afterall, your willing to donate your motor, personal time, and labor to make the head switch comparison.
I think Rudy & Chuck finding a company to manufacture a new improved performance Aluminum head they developed primarily for themselfs then sharing the end result with all of us is great and speaks volumes about Hudsonites!
I would like to know if the head will be capable of attaining 11 or 12.1 Compression Ratio.0 -
maasfh wrote:I would be glad to dyno my race motor first with a clifford head. Would need to make a few pulls to tune for max hp and torque. I can then change the head to the Bennett-Fellows head and tune for final comparison. Of course this is going to be expensive. Will cost $350 per day for me to dyno for as many pulls as I need. Will need to change heads which takes time so I will probably need to pull a second day with the B-F head. This should take care of the speculation for all the folks that critisise the way the head is built, flow tested, ect. Maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong. We will know. With all the interest start sending me your $20.00 donations to help offset expenses. Will be done this winter. I'll be glad to post all names that help with with this project.
Randy Maas
P.O. Box 589
Manito, Illinois
61546
Randy,
I just dropped a check in the mail. Please include your opinion on the suitability of the new head for use on the 262 and 232 engines when you put up the results. Thanks to you, Pal Rudy, and everybody else for your contributions to our collective illness.
R/ Roger.0 -
OK, Randy, I'm in for $20. Do you have a Pay Pal account or do you require a check? Thanks.0
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Randy' set up the a/c that takes PayPal as its not often you will get subsidies coming from all that frequent here and enjoy the free dyno time and all will benefit from your experience expertize and efforts and save a lot of the fellow Hudsonites a lot of time and effort
a win win for every one on this site
Mike0 -
When you go to your paypal account to send the money, select the "personal" selection to send. It is no charge to send this way.0
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Thanks to all that have offered to help with the expense. My address for those that wish to send checks is
Randy Maas
P.O. Box 589
Manito, Illinois
61546
PayPal is my email address-(Drop the het).
hetmaasfh@ntslink.net
Thanks, Randy0 -
Hi Randy,there's the drop in the ocean for you, lets hope the flood gates open so you have a pool of donations and plenty of experimental time to play with :whistle:
Mike0 -
At what point does E-85 become more effective? Do we really need to get the engine up to 15:1 compression?Ol racer wrote:..snipped.. I would like to know if the head will be capable of attaining 11 or 12.1 Compression Ratio.0 -
Pacemaker500 wrote:
At what point does E-85 become more effective? Do we really need to get the engine up to 15:1 compression?Ol racer wrote:..snipped.. I would like to know if the head will be capable of attaining 11 or 12.1 Compression Ratio.
FYI
Compression up to a point adds more Horsepower consequently the reason for all the different high compression heads still available for old brand X... Many modern Drag Motors run up to 15.1 compression. However, Blower & Turbo Motors do not need that high of Compression Ratio to build HP because of the 'boost'. I like the research & design that was put into this new Head as opposed to the competitor Head that needed modified & equalized by the user and never updated.
Regarding E85, Racers have already been experimenting with it for more power at less cost. A good Site to learn about racing with E85 Fuel is www.raceone85.com. 'Alternative Fuels' may be eventually coming to race Tracks soon since NASCAR is switching to Enviromental Fuel next Yr called E15 (E85's 'High Test'........0 -
Ol racer wrote:Pacemaker500 wrote:
At what point does E-85 become more effective? Do we really need to get the engine up to 15:1 compression?Ol racer wrote:..snipped.. I would like to know if the head will be capable of attaining 11 or 12.1 Compression Ratio.0
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