will it stop?

superwasp912

can I put 1 1/8 wheel cyl in place of 15/16 cyl on the rear of a 53 5c?it fits right in the backing plate.increased braking or are they sized for bias? smaller shoes and cylinders. J.R.

Unknown

You'll have LESS stoping power with larger wheel cyls. Need to push harder on brake pedal to get same stopping power.

[Deleted User]

Steve E wrote:

You'll have LESS stopping power with larger wheel cyls. Need to push harder on brake pedal to get same stopping power.

Not necessarily, the pedal travel may be longer, but the answer is really basic math. The force (in pounds) exerted by the wheel cylinder is measured in pounds per square inch. Multiply by the area of the piston in square inches and you will get your answer. In short, the more area the more foot pounds of force are applied.

The real question is how much additional fluid will the master cylinder have to make up for with the larger volume required. You may not have enough volume to go bigger.....then it won't matter how hard you push down.

Lee ODell

superwasp912 wrote:

can I put 1 1/8 wheel cyl in place of 15/16 cyl on the rear of a 53 5c?it fits right in the backing plate.increased braking or are they sized for bias? smaller shoes and cylinders. J.R.

They are seized for bias. Do not do it. Even though they fit, does not make it right.

Lee O'Dell

[Deleted User]

The smaller the cylinder, the more braking power you will have. You can try this with a garden hose. No nozzle on the end, and turn on full pressure, and water will just run out. Now install a nozzle and turn on the water and screw the nozzle in and the more you close it the stronger the pressure. Stick to the original cylinders. I have one size smaller on the front of my Hudson, took a little filing. Ask Ken in Texas, he was riding with me and a car ran a red light right in front of us, I stopped, and ken said, do you have Disc brakes? No Ken just drums. Walt.

[Deleted User]

Please be very careful on making one end of the brakes stronger than the outher.Thay need to be balanced together.If the rear is to strong it will lock up before the front can do any good.This results in the back wheels skidding when you have to stop hard and cause loss of control.

DocHornet

I disagree with several theories posted here. If you look at virtually every car made in recent times with drum brakes, you'll find a slightly larger slave cylinder on the front than the rear. This is because under braking, forward weight transfer demands more work from the front brakes (if you don't believe me, monitor brake shoe wear, front vs rear!).

Hence, the front brakes need more stopping authority, and hence the larger slave cylinder. I'm certainly no expert in fluid dynamics, but it seems pretty obvious to me, that contrary to other opinions, a larger slave cylinder gives increased stopping power.

You don't want more brake efficiency on the rear than the front, unless you plan on entering your car in a drifting contest. That's how those guys do it... lock up the rear wheels, steer hard, and you're in for a fun ride! Under normal highway conditions however, it's always best NOT to have the rear wheels lock up first.

Just my humble, non-engineer observations.

[Deleted User]

DocHornet wrote:

I disagree with several theories posted here. If you look at virtually every car made in recent times with drum brakes, you'll find a slightly larger slave cylinder on the front than the rear. This is because under braking, forward weight transfer demands more work from the front brakes (if you don't believe me, monitor brake shoe wear, front vs rear!).

Hence, the front brakes need more stopping authority, and hence the larger slave cylinder. I'm certainly no expert in fluid dynamics, but it seems pretty obvious to me, that contrary to other opinions, a larger slave cylinder gives increased stopping power.

You don't want more brake efficiency on the rear than the front, unless you plan on entering your car in a drifting contest. That's how those guys do it... lock up the rear wheels, steer hard, and you're in for a fun ride! Under normal highway conditions however, it's always best NOT to have the rear wheels lock up first.

Just my humble, non-engineer observations.

I would like to disagree with you in an unusual way. You are correct that the current 15/16 cylinders are more than enough to get the job done and that 1 1/18 cylinders would be a mistake.

However, the larger front cylinders are not larger for under braking. Its about braking pressure, the fronts do the majority of the work in a brake system and require more braking pressure. On many systems, the front pads are larger as well an need the greater pressure.

This is my humble mechanical engineer opinion. However, detractors should call our good friends at MP BRAKE if they need brake help. They are an excellent resource with aftermarket brakes. www.mpbrakes.com

In the end, clean backplates, new springs & hardware, freshly rebuilt stock wheel cylinders, new drums & shoes, properly setup and adjusted are your best bet......these are not Pontiac GTO's.....these cars came with good brake systems.

superwasp912

I have already installed the correct 15/16 rear cylinders on the car.I was just thinkin out loud, I also have a second 1 1/8 frnt set,I'll put them up for later.the consensus seems to confirm my bias theory.but what puzzles me is why would'nt Hudson use the big cyl's on the front in all cases.bigger cyl's mean less pedal pressure for same force on shoes albeit slightly less responsiveness. J.R.

[Deleted User]

If one end is increased in size the outher one must be allso to keep them in balance.The master cly.may not displace enough fluid to operate them.Making for a low brake pedal.The only way around that would be to increace the size of the master cly.Then you would be right back where you came from on pressure.Altho it uses fluid the brakes operate on the old lever principal,you are trading a lot of motion for less movement but more force.

Majumbo

Can I hajack this for a sec? I have 1 1/16 instead of 1 1/8 on the front of my 5c superwasp. Is this okay? Will I have to get different size for the rear because of the changed fronts? I believe the rear size is the 15/16 everybody is talking about

DocHornet

My suggestion:

Get the car up to 20 mph or so, then jam on the brakes pretty hard... If the rear wheels lock up first, then you're probably going to need the larger front master cylinders.

Majumbo

Do you have a part number for the rears?

chopperchuck

try rockauto they have listed,i email on my brake part yesterday & they e-me back saying my stuff was in stock,,,only 'cause my NAPA sucks!

www.rockauto.com

Geoff

Majumbo wrote:

Can I hajack this for a sec? I have 1 1/16 instead of 1 1/8 on the front of my 5c superwasp. Is this okay? Will I have to get different size for the rear because of the changed fronts? I believe the rear size is the 15/16 everybody is talking about

The short wheelbase cars have smaller brake linings and cylinders. Your 1-1/16" slave cylinders are the correct ones for your car.

junkcarfann

DocHornet wrote:

My suggestion:

Get the car up to 20 mph or so, then jam on the brakes pretty hard... If the rear wheels lock up first, then you're probably going to need the larger front master cylinders.

Actually, you will need larger front wheel cylinders, not master cylinders. Good discussion, guys.

ps. I have a 2004 Ford Explorer Rear end in my 1936 T-plane, (see avatar pic) and used whatever came with it for brakes/wheel cylinders...the hoses hooked up as if it was made by Hudson, and it stops perfectly, w/o any locking up. Did this for the gear ratio change. It basically bolted in, U-joints and all, after I had a shop weld on spring pads like the Hudson.


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chopperchuck

junkcarfann wrote:

DocHornet wrote:

My suggestion:



I have a 2004 Ford Explorer Rear end in my 1936 T-plane, (see avatar pic) and used whatever came with it for brakes/wheel cylinders...the hoses hooked up as if it was made by Hudson, and it stops perfectly, w/o any locking up. Did this for the gear ratio change. It basically bolted in, U-joints and all, after I had a shop weld on spring pads like the Hudson.


is that drum or disc rear??

THANK YOU!

junkcarfann

Its drum brakes.

[Deleted User]

Use the size that came with the car. If you have clean brake cylinders and shoes and adjust the brake shoes using the adjustable pin in the back so your shoes touch the drums evenly you dont need disc brakes. I remember reading an article way back in the dark ages that said Hudson will stop in a shorter distance than any other car manufactured in its day. Most people dont know that you can loosen the nut behind the brake plate and using a feeler gauge slid the whole brake assembly around to allow the whole brake shoes to contact the drum evenly.

chopperchuck

1951hornethardtop wrote:

Use the size that came with the car. If you have clean brake cylinders and shoes and adjust the brake shoes using the adjustable pin in the back so your shoes touch the drums evenly you dont need disc brakes. I remember reading an article way back in the dark ages that said Hudson will stop in a shorter distance than any other car manufactured in its day.

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Most people dont know that you can loosen the nut behind the brake plate and using a feeler gauge slid the whole brake assembly around to allow the whole brake shoes to contact the drum evenly.[/quote
^ ^ ^ ^^ ^ ^^ ^^^

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please tell me more.

[Deleted User]

someone help me out here. Its been decades since I made this adjustment. There is a step by step procdure to do this. My mechanical procedeor book is not available. can anyone help? I know you use the hole in the drum for the feeler gauge turning to the top of the shoe and then down to the bottom of the shoe while sliding the shoe mech. but now I dont remember the spacing etc. Or maybe you set the spacing at the bottom first??????

[Deleted User]

1.After installing hubs and drums,insert a pry between the linings of the secondary shoe and the drum (through drum feeler gauge hole) and move the shoe assembly until the primary shoe is against the opposite side of the drum. The primary shoe can be pried against the drum by inserting the .015" feeler gauge between the adjusting screw end of secondary shoe lining and the drum and then spreading the shoes by rotating the adjusting screw.(the secondary shoe is always the rear and the primary shoe toward the front of the car.) Insert a .015" feeler gauge between the seconday shoe lining and the drum and check the clearence between the lining and the drum at each end of the secondary shoe. A clearence of .015" at each end of the secondary shoe with the primary shoe against the opposite side of the drum indicates a good anchor pin and adjusting screw position. This will give a .0075" clearance between lining and drum all around.If a .015" clearance cannot be obtained at both ends of the secondary shoe by rotating the adjusting screw, the anchor pin must be adjusted. Caution: do not back the nut off too much as this would result in moving the shoes out of postion when re-tightening the nut.To reduce the clearance between the lining and the drum at the anchor end of the secondary shoe, move the anchor pin away from the center.To reduce the clearance at the adjusting screw end, move the anchor pin toward the center.After moving the anchor pin it will be necessary to pry the primary shoe against the drum by inserting a pry between the lining of the secondary shoe and the drum(through the drum feeler gauge hole) and move the shoe assembly until the primary shoe is against the opposite side of the drum.The primary shoe can be pried against the drum by inserting the .015" feeler gauge between the adjusting screw end of the secondary shoe lining the drum and then spreading the shoes by rotating the adjusting screw. Insert the .015" feeler gauge between the secondary shoe lining and drum and check the lining to drum clearance at each end of the secondary shoe. The clearance should be .015" at both ends of the secondary shoe. Tighten the anchor pin nut to 65-75 foot pounds torque. Make sure that the anchor pin does not move during the tightening operation by again checking the secondary shoe clearance after tightening the nut.At the rear wheels only,tighten the adjusting screws until the wheels can hardly be turned by hand. Be sure that the parking brake lever is applied approximately two notches or 1/8" at brake control lever from the fully released position. Adjusting parking brake cable so that all cable slack is removed when the cable is connected. Back off adjusting screw at the rear wheels approximately 14 notches. PS GOOD LUCK