Drivelines - One or Two Piece????

[Deleted User]

My 50 Pace has a two-piece driveline in it. I'm changing out the engine/tranny (LT1/4L60e) and rear end (probably a Ford 9") and am wondering if anyone has used a one-piece driveline? Or are you stuck with a two-piece. I will be having one custom made, but would obviously rather have a one-piece rather than a two-piece. It seems to me that the wheelbase is short enough for a one-piece, but not sure if there are any other issues that come into play.



Jay

rambos_ride

jsrail wrote:

My 50 Pace has a two-piece driveline in it. I'm changing out the engine/tranny (LT1/4L60e) and rear end (probably a Ford 9") and am wondering if anyone has used a one-piece driveline? Or are you stuck with a two-piece. I will be having one custom made, but would obviously rather have a one-piece rather than a two-piece. It seems to me that the wheelbase is short enough for a one-piece, but not sure if there are any other issues that come into play. Jay

Hi Jay! From a modern technical manufacturing standpoint there shouldn't be a reason a 1 piece driveline can't be made - they even have carbon-fiber driveshafts for racing and I think the new Corvettes use them too!

For my 49 4dr and the wheel base a 1 piece driveline would have created under car clearance problems with driveways, humps, bumps and other road hazards for low slung cars.

A 2 piece driveshaft allows the front shaft to remain straight coming out from the output shaft of the transmission and a steep but small rear shaft connecting to the axle from the center bearing.

My donor truck (engine/trans/driveline) had a 2 piece driveshaft (Hudson called it a propeller shaft) already and given the front shaft was a little longer than the Hudson one and the larger diameter of the GM truck driveshaft I had to cut and box the rear x-member for clearance on the rear shaft. Even if I had the front shaft shortened the diameter wouldn't have cleared the original x-member opening.





The clearance with the larger shaft are tight but at the trans output to front shaft there is still an 1/4" clearance to the horizontal body stiffener showing in the last picture. I may also need to grind the top of the center bearing retainer as shown in the second picture - but that is prefferable to cutting the floor up.

mrsbojigger

Hi Jay,

Interesting that you have this question. I am installing an LS1/4L60E combo in my stepdown. I have the engine set as far back as I could with 1" clearance with the firewall and then raised it 1" from stock position to get it as high as I could when sitting in a Camaro sub-frame. I took all my dimensions to Driveshaft Specialist Inc. here in town. They make practically all the driveshafts for the local Street Rodders and some Bonneville racers. The owner is also a street rodder and racer. Anyway, they said that the length is almost identical to some Chevy trucks which they are replacing the 2 piece with 1 piece driveshafts. They saw no problem having the one piece driveshaft this length. They did caution me about being any longer in which I would have to go to a larger diameter and then you get into a whole new set of problems. But here again, the tail piece of my trans sits farther back than Dan's does. My new driveshaft dimension is only 5'-3 1/2". That is measured from the end of the tail piece of the trans to the center line of the u-joint on the rear-end. As for me, I am going with a 1 piece drive shaft connected to a Camaro rear-end. I may have to alter the front cross member slightly but I don't know yet. I WILL definitly be cutting out the back cross member like Dan did in his photos. Yea for Dan!

Peace,

Chaz

Unknown

When I raced a '53 Super Wasp, we used a one piece drive line. It had a 460 Ford with a long tailshaft C6 in it. Admittedly, the Wasp is a shorter wheelbase. We also cut out the back crossmember and put a drive shaft loop in.

rambos_ride

With a bigger diameter driveshaft and/or a 1 piece driveshaft - I can't see how you could leave the rear x-member untouched, that opening is really small - unless you use the stock drive shaft system - which would be just fine if you didn't have too many hp or a lead foot!

As far as ground clearance this rudimentary image with the blue circled area depicts the area I thought would cause clearance problems using a 1 piece drive line with the 124" wheel base on the 4dr.

[Deleted User]

On my 50 Pacemaker I went with a Hudson 308 with the short shaft 350 turbo tranny from a 70 Camaro which I think was 27" long. The rear end is a 8.8 Ford T-bird turbo coupe with Ranger drum brakes & five lug axles. The Hudson engine is in the stock location but I had to lower the rear of the transmission 1" lower than the factory transmission output shaft set.

The rear cross member had to be cut like Dan shows (cool pictures by the way).

The front tail shaft housing places the front yoke and u-joint right at the front main

unibody crossmember. A long shaft 350 turbo would have placed everything behind this but its a little late to change it now.

I went with a 3" diameter one piece driveshaft that is 64-1/2" long with the Ford companion flange on the back. The stock driveshaft was only 2-1/4" I believe so it was small enough to clear. (The driveshaft company wouldn't make one under 3" diameter due to centrifical forces would have limited the maximum RPM to under 2800 so it would'n fail.)

It clears everything but the front yoke is 1/4" away from the crossmember when the rear suspension is fully compressed. It is very tight but I can't get it to rub at all.

My 50 Pacemaker has heavy duty springs on the back which give the car a 2-1/2" rake to it.

I like the way Dan did the orginal carrier bearing H-support and I plan on re-enforcing mine like that to add some additional strength to the unibody.

If I had the change to do it again and I will when this transmission needs to be replaced I will use the long shaft 350 turbo tranny to move behind the front crossmember and shorten the driveshaft. 64-1/2" is real LONG!



By the way the rearend is 57" wide from the back of the backing plate to backing plate. It was only 1" wider per side than the orginal rearend. The parts availability for this rearend is amazing since all the Mustang 5.0 guys use it. I got mine for $125.00 and picked up the 5- lug Ranger axles & drums for next to nothing.

The 87-88 Turbo T-Bird 5-speed cars used the 8.8 with 3.55 traction lock which is a perfect match to the 308 engine. 87-93 Mustangs 5.0 LX & GT's have the same exact width rearend but most of them 2.73 or 3.08 gears with traction locks. The difference is the Mustang has 4-lug drum brakes while the T-Bird has 4-lug 3/4" longer axles with disc brakes which you scrape to install 5-lug Ranger axles and drum brakes. Its a easy swap that takes about 1-1/2 hours to complete.

Right now I have 28 x 10.5 x 15 Michey Thompson slicks on the back with stock Ford 15 x 8 rims on it. There is 1-1/2" of clearance on each side and they do not rub at all.

Its a cheep rearend that can take a lot of torture, which fits the car like its made for it.

Good luck with your project,

PaceRacer50

Unknown

If you're going to use a one-piece driveshaft, you're going to have to re-do the driveshaft tunnel. The first Hudson meet I ever went to was in '99, in Shreveport, and a "Purple Lead Sled", Hudson showed up. He put an Olds engine in, 9 in rear, and at first, spent the money for an aluminum, one-piece driveshaft. He said after they installed the driveshaft, and went to lower the car from the lift, the car "sat" on the driveshaft. He scrapped the one-piece idea, and went with a 2 piece. I put in a chevy motor, 700R4 tranny, a Ford 9in rear, and made no changes to the driveshaft tunnel. I used original size, 2in shaft also. I don't have any pictures of the complete driveline "installed", but here is a picture of the shafts, out of the car. These are out of my "48, Super Six, 4 door.

rambos_ride

PaceRacer50 wrote:

On my 50 Pacemaker I went with a Hudson 308 with the short shaft 350 turbo tranny from a 70 Camaro which I think was 27" long. The rear end is a 8.8 Ford T-bird turbo coupe with Ranger drum brakes & five lug axles. The Hudson engine is in the stock location but I had to lower the rear of the transmission 1" lower than the factory transmission output shaft set.
The rear cross member had to be cut like Dan shows (cool pictures by the way).
The front tail shaft housing places the front yoke and u-joint right at the front main
unibody crossmember. A long shaft 350 turbo would have placed everything behind this but its a little late to change it now.
I went with a 3" diameter one piece driveshaft that is 64-1/2" long with the Ford companion flange on the back. The stock driveshaft was only 2-1/4" I believe so it was small enough to clear. (The driveshaft company wouldn't make one under 3" diameter due to centrifical forces would have limited the maximum RPM to under 2800 so it would'n fail.)
It clears everything but the front yoke is 1/4" away from the crossmember when the rear suspension is fully compressed. It is very tight but I can't get it to rub at all.
My 50 Pacemaker has heavy duty springs on the back which give the car a 2-1/2" rake to it.
I like the way Dan did the orginal carrier bearing H-support and I plan on re-enforcing mine like that to add some additional strength to the unibody.
If I had the change to do it again and I will when this transmission needs to be replaced I will use the long shaft 350 turbo tranny to move behind the front crossmember and shorten the driveshaft. 64-1/2" is real LONG!

By the way the rearend is 57" wide from the back of the backing plate to backing plate. It was only 1" wider per side than the orginal rearend. The parts availability for this rearend is amazing since all the Mustang 5.0 guys use it. I got mine for $125.00 and picked up the 5- lug Ranger axles & drums for next to nothing.
The 87-88 Turbo T-Bird 5-speed cars used the 8.8 with 3.55 traction lock which is a perfect match to the 308 engine. 87-93 Mustangs 5.0 LX & GT's have the same exact width rearend but most of them 2.73 or 3.08 gears with traction locks. The difference is the Mustang has 4-lug drum brakes while the T-Bird has 4-lug 3/4" longer axles with disc brakes which you scrape to install 5-lug Ranger axles and drum brakes. Its a easy swap that takes about 1-1/2 hours to complete.
Right now I have 28 x 10.5 x 15 Michey Thompson slicks on the back with stock Ford 15 x 8 rims on it. There is 1-1/2" of clearance on each side and they do not rub at all.
Its a cheep rearend that can take a lot of torture, which fits the car like its made for it.
Good luck with your project,
PaceRacer50

Great information PaceRacer50! With the rear axle tires and wheels you are currently running do you have the skirts mounted as well?

[Deleted User]

Actually the skirts clear but are close to the outside edge on the front of the 10.5 slicks. I have not driven it with them on with these slicks. I actually plan on leaving them off.

When I had 28 x 9 x 15 Mickey Thompsons slicks on it they cleared easily. I think the skirts look ok on a stocker or a lowered Hudson but since mine looks like it belongs in the staging lanes at any drag strip in late 60's they look out of place.

Maybe this christmas I will buy that digital camera and get some pictures posted.

later,

PaceRacer50

[Deleted User]

Well thanks for all the info guys. Sorry, I was in Denver this weekend picking up some interior panels for my wife's Disco II. Got caught driving in a snow storm and something (a rock or a bird-though it was snowing pretty heavily) shattered the front window of my motorhome's cabover! No shops open on Saturday for glass replacement, so went to home depot and bought plexiglass, 1x3's and carriage bolts and did the makeshift repair. It did get us all the way home!



Anyway, I think the 2-piece may work better since I plan to slam it to the ground. And I have a sloped driveway at home that will play havic with the lowered car! Great pics of the boxing Dan, I will use them for sure.



PaceRacer50, I want to use the skirts, so are you saying that your setup wouldn't work well with them? What if I was using stock tire sizes?

rambos_ride

jsrail wrote:

Well thanks for all the info guys. Sorry, I was in Denver this weekend picking up some interior panels for my wife's Disco II. Got caught driving in a snow storm and something (a rock or a bird-though it was snowing pretty heavily) shattered the front window of my motorhome's cabover! No shops open on Saturday for glass replacement, so went to home depot and bought plexiglass, 1x3's and carriage bolts and did the makeshift repair. It did get us all the way home!

Anyway, I think the 2-piece may work better since I plan to slam it to the ground. And I have a sloped driveway at home that will play havic with the lowered car! Great pics of the boxing Dan, I will use them for sure.

PaceRacer50, I want to use the skirts, so are you saying that your setup wouldn't work well with them? What if I was using stock tire sizes?Hi Jay,

Sounds like you had an adventure! Not to be speaking for paceracer50 but he did mention that the skirts fit with this size tire...

..When I had 28 x 9 x 15 Mickey Thompsons slicks on it they cleared easily....

I was told the stock tire width/size equates to a 215x75x15 and you can go as wide as 235x75x15 on the stock rims. The MT's that PaceRacer50 mentioned should be close to a 235x75x15

[Deleted User]

If its a little warmer tomorrow in the garage (no furnace duct so I have to produce my own heat with a space heater) I will craw under it and measure to get some more accurate measurements.

Right now its about 15-20 out there and I'm too fat & lazy to freeze my lard a$$ off!

Tomorrow after work when the sun is still up it will be at least 10 degrees warmer out there & it won't take the heater too long to get it up to a comfy 50!

The older I get the more I hate the winter...

[Deleted User]

PaceRacer50 wrote:

By the way the rearend is 57" wide from the back of the backing plate to backing plate. It was only 1" wider per side than the orginal rearend. The parts availability for this rearend is amazing since all the Mustang 5.0 guys use it. I got mine for $125.00 and picked up the 5- lug Ranger axles & drums for next to nothing.

The 87-88 Turbo T-Bird 5-speed cars used the 8.8 with 3.55 traction lock which is a perfect match to the 308 engine. 87-93 Mustangs 5.0 LX & GT's have the same exact width rearend but most of them 2.73 or 3.08 gears with traction locks. The difference is the Mustang has 4-lug drum brakes while the T-Bird has 4-lug 3/4" longer axles with disc brakes which you scrape to install 5-lug Ranger axles and drum brakes. Its a easy swap that takes about 1-1/2 hours to complete.

PaceRacer50......what about using a late 70's versailles or granada rear end with the disk brakes? I hear they are about 58" to 59" wheel mounting surface to wheel mounting surface.



Anyone, can I use the stock springs, or will I have to have new springs made? I would love a 4-link with airbags, but its not in the budget right now! :-( Would the old springs hold up to my drivetrain set-up?



Jay

rambos_ride

jsrail wrote:

...Anyone, can I use the stock springs, or will I have to have new springs made? I would love a 4-link with airbags, but its not in the budget right now! :-( Would the old springs hold up to my drivetrain set-up?
Jay

Jay - I'm flogging the forum right now because there is ice on the ground and no way I'm working on the car today!

Original
There is no reason to not try the stock springs unless they are broken- you just have to have the mounts moved.

If it sits too high then you can either, take leaf or leafs out or have a custom set made with the right ride height and spring load.

You can put an airbag in the rear between the rear axel housing and the frame rail (takes an extra mounting point on the axle and probably re-inforce the frame rail) - this was an option for stepdowns from the factory to allow additonal hauling capabilities (hmmm...Big Ol' stepdown haulin' mooshine...)

I would think a modern replacement helper air bag system could be bought and adapted fairly inexpensively.

4-Link

Having never done this I would think trying to add a 4-link setup to a uni-body car would be a bit of fabrication work = $$. The original splayed rear spring alignment was really meant for the handling of the car from what I have read - of course I don't have first hand experience driving one of these yet (except in my driveway - pretending!) so take my comments for what they are...:)

On the Other Hand...

If I were going to the extreme and tubbing the wheel wells and channeling the frame rails and all that - then I would tie the sub-frame to the rear new section and put in a 4-link. I think a step-down with WIDE @SS street slicks all contained under the original body AND with the fender skirts on would be the bomb! But what a whole lotta work = $$!

[Deleted User]

Well, spent the last two days shoveling out the driveway...

Just checked the skirts and they won't clear with the wheels I have on hard turns.

If I had about 1" more backspacing it may clear but would place the section of the tire close to the frame rail.

I did use the stock rear springs on mine and it gives me a nice rake to the car but since I am building a mid to late 60's style drag racer that's what I was after.

Dans advice on the springs and rear suspension above is excellent. The stock setup should get you where you want to be without much modification...maybe a 1" lowering block would be perfect.

On the 9" rear end from the Lincoln I would check the spacing between the back side of the backing plates and compair that to the factory frame outside dimensions. The 8.8 Mustang - T-Bird worked out 1" wider on each side which allowed me to fit the 10.5" Mickey Thompsons perfectly inside the stock wheelwells.

Later,

PaceRacer50

Unknown

Jay, your original springs will be more than strong enough for your set-up. In fact, with the distance between the framerail and the skirts being so tight, without some serious modifying, you won't be able to put a wide enough tire under there to "hook-up" enough to cause damage. Some things you might want to consider are .......1. The "T-bolts" used to hold the axle in place on a Granada, and a Versailles are a "discontinued" item by Ford. Not that you'd ever break one, but thought you'd want to know. 2. Depending on what type of changes you make in the driveline, will determine what will happen when you "lower" the ride height. After installing a Chevy motor, Chevy tranny, 2 piece driveshaft, and Currie 9in w/ disc, I put 600 lbs. of sackrete in the trunk,as close to the rear as possible, 7 people in the car, and went out and did a "hole-shot. The car left 2 black marks, about 20ft in 1st, and about 8 feet in 2nd. When I went back to the shop, and did an undercarriage inspection, the only thing I found wrong, was that the car squatted so much, the frame chipped the end off the left bleeder-valve on the caliper. My remedy to this problem, was to put some "coil-overs" on the shocks. I replaced the bleeder-valve, and tried it again. That fixed the problem. Point is, the lower you go, the closer your getting to problems. But that's nothing a little time, and a lot of money won't fix! So now, if I happen to be out cruiz'n with 6 of my buddies, and just happen to have 600 lbs. of Sackrete in the trunk, I'm still ready to rumble!(ha) Attached are 2 pictures, showing it original, and after the changes.

[Deleted User]

Thanks man, didn't know about the t bolt issue, guess that kind of strikes one more option off the list (I'm narrowing it). I still really love the Currie idea, but may have to wait 'til after tax season to save the money for one of theirs. I know a few guys in the off-roading scene that used them and I've never heard anything bad about Currie. But its not a cheap alternative, though last I checked, they were cheaper on a front custom 1 ton Dana 60 than Boyd Equipment.



Beautiful car (and family of course)! I'm going to try and drop mine in the weeds! There is nicely done 51 Hornet that belongs to Doc of webrodder.com that has a Fatman MII and custom rear suspension. I've contacted him to try and get an article or something showing his rear suspension mods.

Do you have more pics?

Jay

Unknown

I have LOTS of pictures. Anything specific?

[Deleted User]

Your wife! (just kidding man!) :-) The finished car is what I was talking about. I like the color....what is that? It looks similar to my Range Rover.



Jay