Battery advice needed

Jon B

The other day I discovered the 6-volt battery was completely dead, in my Terraplane.

I put it on a trickle charge in the kitchen and after a couple days it was all charged up. Now, three days later, I put the charger on it again, and it's still charging after almost an hour. You'd think it would be "full up".

According to my cheap battery tester, the specific gravity readings for all cells are very similar, which (I think) is good.

After only 4 years, I'd have hoped for a bit more out of this battery before it died.

Are there any other simple tests to do, without lugging this thing into the parts store to have it tested? Or, is the fact that it needs recharging so soon, proof positive that I need a new battery?

Also: is it possible the battery could have been damaged from an overcharge from the generator? Is there a simple test (say, with a multi-meter) that I can do of the car's generator or voltage regulator, to make sure it's charging the battery correctly? (A shocking admission, I know: after all these years I still have little knowledge of how to test a charging system!)

Helpful suggestions will be appreciated!

hornet53

Load tester. I bought one at Sears that can be used on 6 or 12 volt. You clamp the cables to the battery posts and hit the button for 10-15 seconds and watch the needle. If the voltage drops too much in that time you have a bad battery. Same thing the parts store use, minus all the unnecessary computer garbage. I've used it on just about every vehicle I've owned since I got it 5 years ago.

RonS

If it's a conventional wet battery 4 years is not bad. Chances are the cells are not bridged anymore. The load test will prove that when a load is put on the battery and it takes a dive. IMO, the Optima may be a better choice for a six volt. Cost on Amazon is about $115 and add a Quailservices.com disguise box for about $80 for original look, if that matters. Plus, you can purchase and install a HUDSON decal from Paul S and keep it forever.

Jon B

Thanks for these good suggestions, guys!

Hornet53, I might just invest in one of those gizmo's! I trust the Sears name but I wonder what some of the other reliable brands are? Or, is there a "type" that is better than other types ("Toaster", digital vs. analog, and so forth)? Let's face it, I'll probably use this a dozen times before I die, so no need to overpay for a super-professional model. But I don't want one so cheap that it craps out after 5 uses!

Ron, that's pretty cheap for an Optima! Especially considering that the decent 6-volt wet cells like my DEKA are now up in the $90's! Amortizing it out, a wet cell would cost me about $23.50 per year if I get four years out of it. Ho long can one reasonably expect an Optima to last?

Ken, what's an AGM? Never heard of that brand. You may be right about the sulfating: the terminals on this battery get the white powder on them, from time to time. I have been bringing the battery in the house during winter and putting a trickle charger on it, but maybe that's an exercise in futility!

TOM-WA-

DO A GOOGLE SEARCH FOR : BATTERYS PLUS AND YOU CAN SEARCH BY STATE.

I HAVE GREAT LUCK WITH THEIR BATTERYS AND THEY HAVE A VERY GOOD 6 VOLT
WITH LOTS OF COLD CRANKING AMPS

Joe30Essex

Jon, I'm at 4 1/2 years with a 6 volt Optima for my Essex, and still going strong. I used to be lucky to get over 2 years with a conventional. Well worth the little extra in my mind.

Jon B

Joe, I've heard great things about the Optimas but I would definitely want to see what kind of life cycle "real people" are getting from them. I'd imagine it's much more than 4-1/2 years (which, factored into a $115 price, ends up costing more than my lead acid battery!)

RonS

Jon, I would say 6-7 years Avg in my Hornet & Cadillac over 20 years. I have gotten 8 in my '31 Ford. What do you mean a trickle charger? Does it have a float, ie, kind of goes into "neutral" when it senses the battery is fully charged? A standard trickle charger can continue to run on even after full up, damaging the battery. Old style trickle chargers send out 1- 2 volts continuously. See Battery Tender for an example of the better type. The down side of Optima is if it totally discharges, there is a format to recharge that must be followed. Battery Tender Junior is pretty cheap. Been using one for years, as I rotate it from car to car. BTW, Optima weighs 11 lbs, and will never leak acid or need to be filled.

RonS

AGM, means absorbent glass mat. They have been using these in Europe. Go to Johnson Controls website for precise info. However, Optima are spiral cell style in a gel, that are sealed . They have more "open face" plates per sq inch than flat plate style. Flat plate batteries can fit more plates in a particular size box, thereby increasing C amps, only by making the plates thinner. That makes them subject to vibration and heat warping, especially in hot climates. When the plates touch they short and usually is the death knell.

Jon B

Amazon does in fact offer an excellent price on Optimas. However, there may be a down side. According to user-reviews on Amazon's website, local authorized Optima retailers do not take defective Optimas back for a refund. This is noted on Optima's on-line warranty, http://d26maze4pb6to3.cloudfront.net/9613/4997/8047/Optima_Consumer_Warranty_101112.pdf .

If you buy from Amazon and you suspect the Optima battery is defective, you must return it at your own expense to the Amazon retailer who sold it to you.

If you buy an Optima from a local retailer you may pay more like the $164 that's charged by Optima on line. This would allow you to return the battery for warranty service, but the true cost of the battery depends upon the number of years you get out of it!

hornet53

Jon, I've been using my tester on everybody else's cars too. Way more than a dozen times and diagnosed a few bad batteries, including my first Optima(6V). Well worth the $90 or so I spent on it.
Speaking of, my first Optima lasted 8 years. Hard years with bad connections, bad ignition, and looooong crank times. Cranked the battery dead a lot. Always took a recharge. Started cleaning things up when it got really bad and bought the load tester. Showed a bad battery so I replaced it with a new Optima. Haven't even had to charge it since, and its been 5 years on the new one. Car will sit for months and it still starts.
The gas goes bad before the battery does.

rambos_ride

Optima's suck.

When, they first came out were Made in U.S.A

I used them in every car I owned until 2 years ago.

Blew thru 2 red tops in my truck in 6 mo.

Blew thru 3 more yellow top deep cycles within the next year.

I went to batteries plus got their top agm deep cycle Made in U.S.A...not Mexico

2 years now...not a single issue. Problem solved.

Unless your idea of fun is running your optimas back to get warranty replacements every 3 -6 mo. I'd recommend anyone else but Optima

Uncle Josh

It's lived it's life Jon, take the old baddery to the junk yard, recover your $10 scrap money, and get a goodery.

TwinH

15 years from my first Optima from the original manufacturer before they were sold to Johnson Controls and production moved to Mexico. Going on 2yrs. on the Johnson Controls/Mexican made replacement and no troubles yet. (fingers crossed).

Kdancy

I've had mixed results with Optima. I have purchased them from Summitracing. They don't require me to send a defective one back, they just send a new one.
Rambo, what is the part number of the one you get from Batteries Plus?

rambos_ride

deep cycle battery used in my cars

As stated before, was killing Optimas off at a rate of 3-6 months in my truck...the ONLY change I made was replacing with this battery.

rambos_ride

Ken, I was sold 2-Red Tops first as that's what was listed for my diesel - Every Day Driver - at the parts store - they lasted 6mo.

When I went back, I paid the extra money to buy their 2-Optima Yellow tops.

Got home 1 Yellow Top was completely bad..had to take it back without installing it..it WAS brand new.

within 6 months..those failed.
Got replacements via warrenty..and put 2 New Yellow tops in and within 6 mos ...toast.

yes..everything checked out...charging. voltage regulator etc.

So now going on close to 2 years of schlepping batteries back and forth to get warranty replacements - I went to Batteries Plus and bought the 2 new batteries.

It's now 2 years later with absolutely no issues and nothing else has been changed, altered or otherwise on my truck.

I also run same deep cycle in my 3500HD dump truck with a 454 engine and electric/hydraulic lift.

I will say this..I never had any issues getting Warranty replacements with Optima, so kudos for that...but Regardless of what the reps say, I used Optimas for 15+ years in all my vehicles and I'll never go back - lost me as a customer for life.

Jon B

In reference to replacement lead-acid batteries, I just priced a couple of the better lead-acid ones.

Batteries Plus carries an "SLI2" (that's "i-2") for $84.99 + tax, with your old battery. It's a 6-volt group 2 battery with 780 CCA. Takes a day or two for them to get in the store. Only downer is that there is a 12-month full replacement warranty but no further pro-rated warranty. [This battery is supplied by the DEKA company, which makes a comparable one -- #902 -- under their own name.]

NAPA carries a #7204 which is also a group 2, costs about $100.99 at my local store, + tax and your old battery. Sounds like the same battery, with 780 CCA. It carries a 30 month pro-rated warranty and a 6 month full-replacement warranty.

To be sure, the Optima has received rave reviews from a lot of people, yet from what I can see the price is going to be in the $150 range if you get it from a dealer who will back the warranty. (The on-line retailers who offer the real bargains, don't back up the warranties from what I've seen on various web discussion groups.) The other downer is having to build some sort of enclosure to hold these small batteries in your battery tray -- the ones I've seen look like old batteries and run between $75 and $90. The good thing is that you get a 36 month full replacement warranty. And some folks are reporting a battery life of 8 or more years out of Optimas.

In the end, what you pay depends on how long the battery lasts. If I pay $85 and get 4 years from my lead-acid "SLI2", it costs me $21.25 a year. If I buy the gel "Optima" for $150 and I get 8 years, it's costs me $18.75 a year plus a few bucks for the enclosure. About the same. Under this scenario (4 years versus 8) it's a "wash", price-wise, with the advantage probably going to the Optima because a lot of people claim to get long life out of it. (Except for a few people here who swear they'll never buy another one...!)

jjbubaboy

I too am an Optima user. Have had mine 5 years and no issues or problems to speak of. I did occasionally have a couple hard to start 'hot start' issues and after talking to another older gentlemen who was having this also I used his remedy. I got an additional Optima (both 6v, and both from Amazon) and wired them in series. Now I have double CCA but all 6v on running. Made my own cables from terminals and solder lugs I ordered through Del City. Starts and runs right away. Even after I recently discovered, on a hot night trip, that running the lights and the auxillary cooling fan some, that the gennie wasnt able to keep up. Got me home safe and put my battery tender on and she was all ready to go the next morning. No problems since.
I am now looking into a Powermaster Powergen, which is an alternator with regulator, installed in a generator looking case to cure any issues with that.
I recently have also been seeing some info on a new line called Odyssey Batteries that seem to be doing well.
Jeff

Kdancy

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-82106?seid=srese1&gclid=CLz60pqW-rgCFUxo7Aodej4Alw

Wow, 90amps for a 6V pos gd alternator

http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/odyssey-battery
Rather pricie!

RonS

Regarding the cost of the disguise box for Optimas... This is a one time cost, and if you no longer want an Optima, or sell the car, you can always sell the box. Once more, if you wish to have a period correct look, then you can place a decal "Hudson Parts" on the box (no one makes decals for NATIONAL, yet) and never have to replace it, as you would with a new conventional battery every 2-3 years. Last year I replaced an Optima on my Model A Ford after 6-7 years from Amazon. I received instructions from Optima( Johnson Controls) on how to file a warranty claim, but never needed to do so. the battery came from Amazons warehouse. I guess Amazon sells enough of these to stockpile them. BTW, if you have a battery that is under the floor boards such as early 30s models then this is a no brainer, as you owners know the hassle involved with checking and filling batteries under the boards. I will say however, I don't feel that it is cost effective for 12 volt systems. There I like Costco & their Interstates. In an vintage car 12 volt is already incorrect, so a funky green and white battery case is of no consequence.

Jon B

Ron, the problem in buying the battery through Amazon (or so I am reading on the internet) is that a local Optima dealer will not honor it. And (again, if I'm reading the on-line reviews correctly) Amazon itself won't honor the warranty. (The reviewers could be mistaken of course.) The Optima battery itself is great, but one might want to buy it locally so the full warranty will be honored. But locally, the battery may cost somewhere around $150!

Have you attempted to return a defective Optima to Amazon before? Or do you know anyone who has? I'd be curious.

RonS

I'm going to find out how Johnson Controls covers their warranty at Amazon. Still, I have been using Optimas in three cars(6v) that I have owned for over 15 years. I have had no failures before 6 years and most went over 7. Warranty is only for 3 years not prorated. All 6v lead acid batteries that I see are prorated after 12 months. On the avg I have saved $30 for each battery purchased for a total of 9 since the mid 90s. Total saved at Amazon = $270(cost of 2 new Optimas) , not to mention the convenience of delivery to my door, no acid spills, 11 lbs not 25, or maintaining water level. QUESTION ? has any one on this forum ever had a warranty claim with an Optima purchase on Amazon? I guess you have to ask " do you feel lucky?" But after all, this is not a really big expense when we consider the cost of owning these cars.

Kdancy

As stated in my other post, Summit Racing covers the warranty on Optima batteries and has some of the best pricing.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ult-9010-044/overview/

http://www.amazon.com/Optima-Batteries-8010-044-Starting-Battery/dp/B00099HVN6/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1376475778&sr=1-1&keywords=optima+red+top#productDetails
In reading their feedback, it appears Amazon won't cover any issues over 30days old.

mdwhit

I bought one about 2 years ago and had Summit match Amazon's price.

RonS

Well, that is tempting. And with free shipping. I went to Amazon, last night and inquired if any one had a problem getting an exchange. Amazon, in their warranty return section for auto parts, tells how to return a product. The claimant must obtain a return label first then send back the item. It does not say batteries are excluded. I also sent a general inquiry to any buyers. I received 4 returns. Two stated they never had an issue. One quoted me the "label" procedure, and the 4th said that Amazon said to contact Johnson Controls, who followed up by telling the claimant it is Amazons responsibility. #4 advised Amazon of JCs response, and they did accept his return with a credit . But for $20, I too would consider Summit first. Always had good service with them. Thanks , Kerry