Sluggish Pacemaker

[Deleted User]

My '50 Pacemaker, for some time, has been greatly lacking in power when going up hills. I recently had a tune up done and a change for my carburetor. The mechanic found that the gaskets under the carb were leaking air. Apparently, someone in the past put long bolts in the intake manifold so they had to stack several gaskets under the carburetor to get it high enough that the hold down bolt cleared the throttle valve mechanism on the right side of the carb. My mechanic cut the bolt off a bit so the carb sets right down on the heat shield. Now it idles better and runs generally better but still lacks the power it should have when going up a hill.
A friend I mentioned this to suggested that the compression should be checked, for he said low compression in even one cylinder would cause the engine to be down on power. If I try to go up a hill, even one that people in most parts of the country would not consider a hill, and put my foot right to the floor, nothing happens and the car poops out very quickly.
Would you say my friend is on the right track with his suggestion? Any help I might get here would be most wecome.

Geoff Blake

J Spencer

When the tune up was done what did mechanic set the timing at? Factoty is 0 degrees but you may be able to advance the timing some to help. I run my 51 Pacemaker at 5 degrees advance and have run it at 10 degrees using 91 octane fuel. If the mechanic knows how to use a vacuum gauge to set timing have him try that. Hook up the gauge to full manifold vavuum, increase timing(with vacuum advance disconnected) until you get the highest steady gauge reading then back it off 1/2 to 1 degree. Drive it and see how it goes. Listen for engine "ping" under heavy acceleration from 30MPH in high gear or going up the hill. No ping,you may be able to adjust a little more advance in it. Another thought, is the centrifigal (mechanical) Advance in the distributor working? that could effect it also. It's tough to set the timing on a Hudson using a timing light looking down at the flywheel.

Jim Spencer
WNY Chapter HET Club

Kdancy

Sounds like a possible gas issue, check your gas lines back to the tank and make sure all is clear and there is no trash or rust in the tank clogging the fuel line. Any inline filters you may have need to be checked.
Also you can take some starting fluid and spray small amount around carb base to see if you have a vacuum leak in that area. It will cause the car to run faster for a few seconds as the vacuum leak sucks in the fluid.
Possible ignition issue next. Check your distributor vacuum advance line and make sure the advance is working.

lostmind

I think Kerry is on the right track. Your mechanic should check Fuel pressure AND
volume. Timing and fuel delivery are both items that have your symptoms.
Bad compression usually effects idle smoothness , unless all cylinders are low.

nick s

Tom a stack of gaskets under and below the heat shield is correct. 4 on each side. the carb seting right on the heat sheild will absorb heat from the shield and also will not seal. it is possible that his "fix" helped the leaks but did not completely eliminate them. look up paulargetype here on the forum, he can hook you up with new gaskets and a new stainless heat shield. You said a change for the carb, not changed the carb. a bad accelerator pump may be the issue.

Club Coupe

On the top at the front of the carburetor there is a brass nut. Under this nut is a screen-type filter. Along with the other advise; check this filter to make sure it is clean. Along the same line, trouble pulling up a hill, a friend had the same problem a couple of years ago with a 1950 Jeep. Turned out to be a bad coil. You may want to check the coil also.

[Deleted User]

Nick, I wasn't aware that the stack of gaskets was necessary. The mechanic, when trying to locate the cause of the idle problem, sprayed carb cleaner on the stack and the engine stalled. He used Permatex under the shield and under the carb. And, no, the carb was not changed. It was rebuilt a year ago.
J Spenser, the machanic set timing as well as could be, using the mark on the flywheel. He said he advanced it 5 degrees for that was what Park Waldrop suggested to me. The car runs well on the flat, accelerates smoothly, just has the trouble on hills. As to fuel pressure or flow, it runs well at sixty on the highway, so I don't see how the pressure would quit at 35 on a modest hill.
Right now I can't afford to have the mechanic fiddle around and try guessing at what the cause is so I'm going to have to have him check some specific areas.
Thank you for your help and if we come up with a solution, I'll let you know.

Geoff Blake

junkcarfann

The first thing to do is a compression check. Without that, you do not know if the engine itself is healthy, or if the problem is with the fuel or electrical system(s).

An old mechanic's axiom: "You cannot tune up an engine with bad compression."

[Deleted User]

Make sure someone did not change the rear end ratio. Is it standard or standard with overdrive? Walt.

rambos_ride

That was the first behavior I had before I discovered the rear fuel filter was plugged.
Started and ran fine on the flats, then even the smallest hill it died...then it just got to the point where it would easily start, but as soon as you tried to give it gas it died.

I know some are running gasket stacks..but I would think the preferred method is to us single gaskets with a phenolic spacer made for old chevy's this gives the correct spacing for heat displacement too.

PAULARGETYPE

middletom: THE STUDS WERE THE RIGHT LENTH THE GASKET STACK IS THERE TO HELP KEEP HEAT OFF THE CARBURETOR THERE SHOULD BE 4 BELOW AND 4 ABOVE THE HEAT SHIELD I SELL THE HEAT SHIELDS MADE FROM STAINLESS STEEL AND I ALSO SELL THE GASKETS THE NEW GASKETS ARE DUBBLE THICK SO YOU WILL ONLY NEED 2 ABOVE AND 2 BELOW THEY ARE MADE FROM A NEW GASKET MATERAL THAT WILL NOT TRANSFER HEAT LIKE THE ORIGNAL ONES DID THE NEW GASKETS ARE $2 EACH HEAT SHIELDS ARE $10 FOR SINGLE BARRELS AND $15 FOR 2 BARRELS THE SINGLE FITS ALL W1 AND WA1 CARBS BOTH SMALL AND LARGE BOTTOMED, THE 2 BARREL FITS WDO AND WGD CARBS

ALL OF THE GASKET STACKS ARE GETTING TO THE POINT THAT THERE STARTING TO FAIL IF THERE ORIGNAL AND SOME THAT WERE REPLACED YEARS AGO NEED REPLACED ALSO THE GAS

WERE RUNNING TODAY IS ALOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WAS OUT IN THE 50'S AND 60'S

I TOO WOULD TAKE A COMPRESSION TEST TO SEE IF ALL THE CYL'S CLOSE

Park_W

Geoff, did that weak performance on the hills exist before the carb work? If it cropped up afterward, have him check that the carburetor "float drop" is set per the spec's. If the drop is insufficient, the needle valve doesn't open far enough to allow adequate fuel flow. This happened on my Twin-H Hornet . . . couldn't figure out why it would starve for gas on a steep hill or if giving it a lot of throttle. Simple float drop increase solved the problem.

[Deleted User]

Walt, I have no idea if the ratio was ever changed but it is just three speed, no overdrive.
Rambo's-Ride, I assume you mean the filter or screen on the pick-up in the tank. Is that correct? I had rebuilt the carb a few years ago, but as the kit came with an exploded diagram only and no instructions as to how to adjust things, I sent it off to Walt to have it done properly. I remember mentioning to him on the phone before I sent it to him that as I was intending to go to Gettysburg, I needed to have it better on the hills between here and there and hoped that his rebuild would solve that problem. But I don't recall that the weakness on hills was always a problem before recent years.
PAULLARGETYPE, Unfortunately, the stud has been cut down, so the standard stack will not fit. I could get some gaskets from you and put in what fits or get a new stud for the manifold, though that could be a large task. The heat shield is still on, so I wouldn't need another.
Park, I half answered your question to Rambo's Ride, but the rebuild did not fix the sluggishness. However, because of an overflowing carb this spring, I replaced the needle valve, which was sticking, with one of Bill Craig's ball valves and have not had any problem with overflow, but the sluggishness hasn't changed. As a thought, the other day my wife and I went for a ride on back roads up country, and the day was an early cool day, upper sixties for temperature, and I found the car had more get-up, it took hills better and when I put my foot into it there was acceleration. Coincidence or might there be a connection with the temperature?
Wednesday, I'll have the compression checked and that either will give an answer or rule out another possibility.

Geoff Blake

Geoff

You also need to inform us whether the car actually misfires, hesitates, or otherwise plays up, or whether it runs smoothly and just lacks power. If it is a fuel supply problem the engine will in run jerky fashion, and tend to spit back through the carburettor. Check the rear end ratio by jacking up one side and revolving the wheel twice, and count the number of turns of the drive shaft. The standard ratio for 3 speed was 4.1, so your shaft should turn just over four turns. If it less than this it could be that you have too high a ratio for the 232 to pull. You also need to check the distributor timing with a timing light, that the vacuum and mechanical advances are both working, and get the exhaust gas checked with an analyser. There is no simple "easy-fix", without knowing exactly what is going on.
Geoff

[Deleted User]

Geoff, the car runs very well, no back firing, no stumble, no misfire. When I pull away from a stop, it works smoothly and seems to have good acceleration, for only 112 horsepower.
I'll have to see what tomorrow brings with the compression check, but I'll keep in mind the check of the rear end ratio.

Geoff Blake

[Deleted User]

So, here are the results of the compression check, cylinders 1-6, 80,85,83,83, 93 and 90. I don't know what should be ideal but that seems quite consistant. The mechanic, at the same time advanced the spark more, he said as far as it would go, and the car smoothed out some more and drove well, but nemisis, the hill in town still presented a problem. This is a fairly steep hill but only about a quarter mile in length, at most. Yet, by the time I got to the top the car was so slowed that I nearly down shifted to second. The guy behind me must not have been pleased.
I just noticed this site lists me as an "expert adviser". There may be something I'm expert in, though many might dispute that, but car matters are not my area of expertise.
The mechanic noticed, when doing the check on the engine that the front bolt on the exhaust manifold was either missing or broken off, but I wouldn't think that would have much to do with the present problem

Geoff Blake

Geoff

You really need to check the ignition timing with an electronic light, that it is on the first marking on the flywheel at idle, and that the auto advance is working properly. Also a vacuum gauge test would not go astray, as well as an exhaust gas analysis. What about that rear end ratio?

[Deleted User]

Geoff, I've not had an opportunity to check the ratio. I'll have to arrange for that because I've no way to get the rear up into the air on my own.

Geoff Blake

Geoff

Just a jack under one side to get the wheel off the ground does the trick.

[Deleted User]

Geoff,
As to checking the rear end, unless the car came from the factory with a different axle, it should be the 4.1 because the original owner bought the car new in 1950 as his retirement car. I doubt he ever changed the axle. Everett Hudson bought it from that man's widow in the summer of 1979 and I bought it from him later that summer, so it doesn't seem likely to me that the axle is non-original.

Geoff Blake

Geoff

Okay, the other question is did it used to go up this hill okay ? Or has this just happened?

essexcoupe3131

is it possible its just the condenser breaking down under load,
as this sounds a typical of that

[Deleted User]

Geoff, I've been away for a while, but to answer your question, the car has not always been so sluggish, just noticed it the past couple years. Some on this site and others I've spoken with have suggested that the fuel pressure is not good and when I call for more get up and go for a hill, the fuel just isn't there to meet the demands of the engine. It seems to me that that could be a solution, for one man suggested that the tank pick-up could be partially clogged or the line from the tank to the front, which is original, may be gummed up with deposits. Another thing I've noticed the past couple years, something that has stumped me but which may be explained by fuel starvation is that when I run on the highway, then pull off to a stop sign or light, the car stalls and is hard to start. It seems to me that the same cause could be responsible for that, too.
My decision after all this is to get a new fuel line, and fuel pick-up as well as an electric pump to have down by the tank. That should assure good pressure at all times and I have faith that that will cure the hill difficulties.
3131, the condenser was changed with the tune-up so I wouldn't think that that would be the cause. But I will double check that and everything else.
It has been depressing to drive over to Vermont and on the long hills I'm going so slowly that three guys on a moped could pass me.

Geoff Blake

Kdancy

Is the timing chain the original one? Starting to wonder if the chain is stretched affecting the timing.
Like Geoff says, the timing needs to be checked properly.
If that winds up being an issue, change the oil pump gear when you change the chain. It will wear out to a "knife" edge.

Geoff

I doubt that fuel pressure is the cause, as this would make the car misfire and stumble, and you say that it still runs smooth. Get a timing light and check that mark on the flywheel.

[Deleted User]

Should be able to somewhat check for wear in the distributor drive gear by turning the rotor back and forth. Any wear in the gear would be felt as "Play" in the shaft.
Roger