Looking for information on early stepdowns.

keithfullmeryahoocom

I'm asking this here, because I am certain that this is the most knowledgeable group on earth when it comes to Hudsons.

I am seriously considering purchasing an early stepdown model, most likely '48-50. I'm confused about some labels though. I see several of the convertibles listed as Commodores some Broughams, and some not. Can someone clear up the different designations?
Also, most in this range have the 8 cylinders but some have the six. I've seen both listed as the 262 ci. Is this correct for these years? In order to have the twin H, the engine would have to be a later model, right?

Are the eights more coveted than the sixes? I would love to hear discussion about this.
Thanks in advance, Keith

Geoff

Others with more intimate knowledge than I have will fill in the gaps I'm sure, but briefly, all Hudsons 1948-1950 could be had with the 262 6 cylinder, or 254 8 cylinder. In 1954 a smaller wheelbase Pacemaker was introduced with a 232 6 motor, and the 8 was not an option for this. Brougham was a two-door sedan, coupe was a shortened passenger compartment, but not over-all length. Commodore designation was for the up-market models with enhanced interior fittings, upholstery etc. The twin-H was not an option until the Hornet 308's came on the scene in 1951, but could be retro-fitted to earlier models.

cpr3333

A bit more (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong)...

In 1948 and 1949, there were two models - the Super and the top of the line Commodore. Like Geoff said, both could be had with either the straight 6 or the straight 8.

One correction - the Pacemaker was introduced in 1950, not 1954.

More brougham info - it is a body style, sometimes known as a 2 door sedan. It has the same roofline as the 4 door sedan.

Also available in 1948 thru 1950 were a coupe (a 2 door with a different roofline), a business coupe (basically a coupe with no back seat), a 4 door sedan and a convertible (also sometimes called a convertible brougham just to confuse the issue). Not all body styles were available in all model and engine combinations.

One of these days, I want to put together a 'spotter's guide' which would be a quick reference for how to differentiate between the various years and models but it is mostly in my head at the moment.

keithfullmeryahoocom

So, were all convertibles "broughams"?
Of the two engines, which is most desirable? Are these engines capable of keeping up with modern day traffic with the overdrive option? I want to be able to drive the car a bit with no modern modifications.

hudsontech

Go to the online website - under Other H-E-T Information is a copy of my General Information Handbook. The 1948-1950 stepdowns are there. Not all the info you want but a lot of it.

http://hetclub.org/burr/lithomepage.htm

The body styles offered were sedan (obvious), brougham (2-doors, roof line like the sedans), club coupes (2-doors but the roof line drops down to the trunk), business coupe (same as club coupe, but no back seat) and the convertible - Hudson designated these as convertible broughams. It's simply the designation they gave them. Made them sound more sophisticated, was the reasoning behind the name, I suppose.

The General Info Handbook can tell you what engines were offered with which models. As to which is the best they were all good. The straight 8's were very smooth and pretty much as powerful as the sixes. The 232 engine is, basically, a smaller offshoot of the 262 - a lot of the components in one will work in the other, for example.

Answers to other questions you might have can be found in the 1948-1954 section of the online library. For example there is a set of Service Merchandizers that may be of help.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN

RL Chilton

Hello, Keith! Welcome to the forum! You've pretty much got your questions answered from the above posts. I'll add just a little:

I wouldn't say there is a "most desirable" when comparing the 6's or the 8's. Both are highly prized, for different reasons. I will say that as far as the 8's go, initially, they were more expensive than the 6's, at least early on. Also, the 8's were very much out of date by the late 40's-early 50's. By this I mean that the 8's were "splasher" engines, and utilized babbit bearings. There are very few craftsmen left that can properly re-pour a babbit bearing, although there are still some. Typically, major engine work on an 8 will be more expensive than a 6, which is something to consider. 8's are smoother engines than 6's when built correctly. Power in the early 6's compared to the 8's is nearly identical. The real difference (power-wise) came with the Hornet engines, starting in '51.

Can you keep up with modern-day traffic with overdrive? You bet! If you plan on doing any freeway driving, or a lot of city driving, I would recommend putting hornet brakes on an early step-down, as they are more than adequate, whilst the early narrower brakes will have a harder time stopping like the new small cars can.

Lastly, "brougham" referred to a type of convertible. Later, in the step-down years, the first couple of years, the convertibles were called "convertible broughams". Then that designation was used on the 2-DR Sedans, as mentioned above and they stopped using that term in association with the 'verts. As Alex pointed out, it was all just marketing ploys. Don't put too much stock in it.

What body style are you looking for?

RL Chilton

Nice post, Doc!

Geoff

Oops, finger slip! Of course I knew 1950 was first Pacemaker. Should have proof-read my post!

ernie28

The Pacemaker with the standard 232 engine, a 4.1 diff and overdrive will easily keep up with modern traffic. I do it regularly! The hills is the only time a few more horses would be an advantage at times - if there is no hurry, then it does not matter.

Browniepetersen

Not a lot of comment on the stepdown 6 cyl engines so let me give you a short quick comment. The main differences between the 232, 262 and the 308 is what you would normally get with improvement of design year by year. The first being the 232. The 232, as with all the 6's is a good solid engine and will keep up with highway speeds. Especially with the overdrive. As 1951 and 1952 came along the improvement to the 232 became the 262. The engineering improvements gave the engines more horse power and it is less work to bring an engine into full balance. With the 308, the engineering improvements included the addition of twin carbs. This increased the overall horse power and improved how smooth the engine would run. As stated before all are good engines. I have had all three (and an 8). I like them all and it is much like the old song says "love the one your with."

keithfullmeryahoocom

Thank you all for the very valuable information.
Although it clears up much of my confusion, I am still all over the place on which model to actually pursue. I am in wanting a convertible. I know, the initial price is somewhat painful, but I believe they will hold value.
I am a 49niner, myself, so I have other classic cars that are 49s. I love the 49 Hudson look and there are several convertibles currently on the market.
I also like the subtle change made in the '50 grille.
The 308 engine with the "twin H" is a desired engine for me, and the "massive" chrome on the later models also appeals to me.
As I said, I'm all over the place.
I am looking for a car that has been restored and is reliable. The three-speed manual with overdrive will take precedence.
I will take the groups' advice and continue my homework with the website and the book.
Again, gentlemen, thank you.

SuperDave

Where are you located? There is a nice 49 Commodore Eight Convertible here in Florida that needs a new home! LOL. It has OverDrive!

RonS

Welcome Keith. Good responses from all the above. One thing that I did not see. There were no Hydromatics until '51. So, all Hudsons had a clutch 48-50, but some were ordered with a semi- automatic, either Drivemaster or Supermatic. I'll let you read about them on line. They require maintenance time to time, but can be "locked" out. Super models' vin begins with year(48,49 or50 then 1 for 6cyl or a 3 for an 8cyl. Similarly the third # is a 2 for a Commodore 6 and a 4 for a Commodore 8. The Pacemaker is similar with a 50 then a # denoting the model. Why I say this there are a lot of Commodore options that were fitted to Supers not to mention engine swaps. Ideally the triangle vin plate on the A pillar passenger side between the door hinges should match the # on the front passenger side of the block. Not that there is an evil with "swaps", just a note... price that you pay should reflect that issue. Some sellers may claim a Commodore when it may actually be a Super. This is true with any car brand. I advise joining the HET Club. The best bet IMO, is to purchase a nice car from another member or a car that a member can recommend. Where are you located? Ron

hudsontech

Brownie the 262 came out in 1948 - the 232 was a smaller version of the 262, as the 308 was the next step up from the 262. There are many internal parts of the 262 that will interchange into the 232, and many 262 parts that interchange into the 308.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN

RL Chilton

"The best bet IMO, is to purchase a nice car from another member or a car that a member can recommend."
Ron

Keith-
This might be the single best advice you have gotten yet. Don't take it lightly.

Browniepetersen

Jason out at Vintage Coach in So California ( albrighthudsons@msn.com ) still has a few convertibles in his stock. You might want to check him out or give him a call ( 909 823-9168). Jason runs a second generation Hudson shop and has a great deal of smarts when it comes to Hudson's.

lostmind

Was the 232 a " wide" block, or did it stay the narrow block from the 48?
Never owned one.

Frankvintagefullflowcom

Well, since we've wandered this far from the original question, (what was it again?) I'll throw in my two cents worth, too, just to cause trouble.
Assuming we're talking apples for apples on width, the 232 and 262 blocks are identical. Not the crank, not the pistons, not peripherals, just the bare block. For instance, If you wished to make a 262 out of your 232 and had a split-wide-open 262 donor engine, you could use the 4-3/8 crank and get 262 pistons (you were going to do a proper rebuild anyway, right?) and create a 262 with your correct original Pacemaker S/N stamped into it. Same cam, same rods, bearings etc. Utilize the 232 head to bump compression a bit and go racing.
I can hear the grumbling already. I know the intake manifolds/carbs are different as is the distributor model, starter, etc. That's what I meant by "peripherals".
A 232 dist shaft won't clear the larger center counterweight of the 262 crank. ( I don't think, though I've never actually tried it).
Although buying from a Club member is a good suggestion it doesn't guarantee quality. I've been badly burned twice (no, not the same guy).

An absolute, IMHO: never buy "sight unseen" no matter who it is, and "dependable daily driver" is a very fuzzy, nearly meaningless term.

Frank

keithfullmeryahoocom

Well, I for at least one, am enjoying and learning from the thread.
This will not be my first vintage car and I have learned long ago to never buy a car from pictures or someone else's description. It is always worth the trip to see and drive the car first hand. I do believe there is value in buying a car from someone in the HET club. At least there is a better chance that the car has been appreciated, preserved and maintained.
I notice a lot of these cars are in Canada. I've never bought a car outside the U.S.
Can someone with experience or knowledge fill me in on the necessary hurdles to buy a Canadian auto and transport it here?

Again, thanks in advance. Keith

Browniepetersen

Keith, you have not mentioned yet where you live. I do wish it were in Utah. We need more members here. Anyway, as you can see we Hudson folks like to talk and to help. I would suggest that you look into joining the club. There are a lot of helpful folks that do not visit our Forum and there are some real benefits in being a member. There is also some great information on the web site (http:/www.hetclub.org) Check it out.

Kdancy

1950 Hudson models in brochure-

MikeWA

Just when you thought the subject was completely exhausted. . .

As noted above, the '48 and '49 are virtually identical. The only easily visible difference (I am told) is the chrome surround on the outside of the front door windows on the closed cars. The chrome surround is in two pieces, joined by a sliding clip on the top portion. On the '48, the clip is about 2 inches behind the front wing window; on the '49, clip is at about the mid-point of the top of the window. This doesn't apply to convertibles, of course- no window surround.

RL Chilton

MikeWA-
I thought that it applied to both sides of car?

MikeWA

Yes, it does, but I was just "simplifying" the process a little. Point well taken- will edit the post.

keithfullmeryahoocom

Again, thanks for the enlightening discussion.
Brownie, as my east-coast friends like to say, I'm only "one big square state" away--Colorado.
I'm in the Denver area.
I use to own a Terraplane. I traded it for a car I had been looking for, for a long time, and the experience only whetted my Hudson appetite.

I have found the HET site and I'm in the process of re-joining the club.

Also, I am researching the process of importing a car and looking at in-country cars as well.
Dave, I have an email headed your way.
Brownie, thanks for the #. I will be calling Jason at old Bill Albright quarters.
I had many conversations with Bill several years ago and miss him dearly. What a prince!
Keith

Browniepetersen

Bill Lentz, from your home state there in Colorado bought a convertible from the Albright collection. Bill is a good resource and this email address should help you tag up with him. (welentz@gmail.com) Also, we have a joint meet in Green River (Utah) in the fall of each year. Look forward to seeing you there. Bill has five open Hudson's last time I checked. Mention my name when you call him.....

hudsontech

Needles were verticle in 1948, early 49. Went to horizontal in mid-49, I believe.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN

SuperDave

I worked on an untouched, original 49 Super 6 ,Vin number 491146762 (Sept 49?) back in 1975 It had the vertical gauges . The style of the "graphics" matched the Super Speedo and spring wound Clock graphics. I swapped them all out from a 49 Commodore which was a richer appearance and those gauges were horizontal. The vertical and horizontal gauges also swapped positions . The temperature was on the left on the vertical set, on the right on the horizontal gauges.

53jetman

It seems to me the vertical gauges did not make their appearance until mid year 1949 - a running change until the end of production of the '49 models.